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Jeridian

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Before I start, this is all theoretical at the moment- I haven't approached Neil for BotCh status, or Epic UK for aid, or anyone else yet.

As much as I enjoyed Warhammer, it made me want to bring Epic (and the Flame On Epic players) to our tournament, so what follows is a long ramble on rough ideas and thoughts about an Epic tournament at BotCh 2010.

First off, the 'ideals' of BotCh as I see them.

BotCh Ideals

-Escalating Points Totals: A variety of pts levels throughout the games, this is a great thing IMO as it can get stale playing the same pts level at a tournament- especially if it's the 'standard' pts limit of the game (1500 for 40k, 2000 for WFB, 3000 for Epic), where everyone will bring the list they've played against you for months. It makes you think, adapt and in many cases include units you'd have neglected otherwise. It's also a form of stealth comp, as your biggest pts game comprises a couple of smaller self-contained armies, making it extremely difficult to wedge in 900pts deathstar units, etc. I'll go into detail about proposed Epic pts escalations later.

-Composition: It is 'light' compared to some comp tournaments, but it's vital in 40k and WFB. The lack of it at 'offical' GW tournaments really puts me off (but is understandable as adding Comp is admitting you made a mistake in the Codex). Much of it is also selective- if a filth unit is included, you notify the player to remove- most comp tries to set a blanket ban to stop it without actually 'picking on it', hurting various other units in the crossfire- blanket rulings like this make heavy Comp a bad idea.
It may seem arrogant to say I think Epic doesn't need comp- but I don't think it does.

-Secondary Missions: This is another good point, most players are used to Pitched Battle and the various 40k Standard Missions, having a little sideshow makes it more interesting- it also affects the 'main' game as you may be more cautious with a character if Assassinate is on the cards, or more reckless if the reward is a Standard that you could capture, etc.
The key is a secondary mission achievable by both sides even if your in dire straights, but not so achievable it becomes automatic, whilst being fair to all armies- a tricky proposition.
In Epic, your already going for 5 different missions each game, so it's going to be very hard to think of more- that are also fair. Capturing specific terrain pieces perhaps?

-Members & Friends: Tickets on sale to FO members, then to friends. This makes for a great atmosphere as everyone knows each other, and often have a shared outlook on the games their playing- in short, it stops nobbers, cheaters, druggies, randoms, etc wandering in as they have and do at official GW tournaments.
Despite my endorsement above- I think this isn't feasible for Specialist Games. It backfired on BFG, it backfired on Bloodbowl- it would backfire on Epic. There just aren't enough Flame On members willing to come to a tournament for these games (especially if the Core Games are being played). BotCh- Epic would have to be advertised outside of Flame On from the start.
I can't vouch for all Epic players, obviously, but all Epic players I've met on the 'tournament circuit' have been great.

Epic Schedule

So, assuming the same time schedule as this year, this is the rough outline of what I'd like to do for Epic.

Saturday

Game 1- 2000pts (Third=667). 90min.

Game 2- 2500pts (Third=834). 90min. This is your Game 1 army plus 500pts.

Game 3- 3000pts (Third=1000). 120min. This is your Game 1 army plus 1000pts.

Game 4- 3500pts (Third=1167). 120min. This is your Game 3 army plus 500pts.

Sunday

Game 5- 4000pts (Third=1333). 180mins. This is your Game 3 army plus 1000pts.

Game 6- 4000pts. As game 5.

Scoring

BotCh used a 30-10-1 Win-Draw-Loss. It worked for Warhammer and 40k- you either win (by objectives or VP's) or you didn't. Epic you can win by a narrow 2-1, or a lethal 5-0, and all in between. It's not as detailed as a pure Victory Points table, but not as simple as a Win-Lose-Draw.
Would this require different software, results tables?

Anyway, any thoughts?

Curis

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I really missed going to BotCh this year, the atmosphere's great as it's a tournament hung round ideals and themes. But I can't stand the core systems, and haven't yet thrown myself into Blood Bowl. If it ran Epic I'd leap and skip over.

With regard to the closed-door system of BotCh I've a solution. Run the event appended to BotCh rather than as part of it. Give it its own sub-brand ("Battle of the Microchumps") and then tout it as though it's an entirely separate tournament to BotCh. It keeps the other systems protected, but cultivates the player base needed to make the Specialist Game runt systems reach the minimum threshold for players.

hello_dave

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Sounds good to me.

Maybe you could employ the Epic UK ruleset, and open it up to that lot, they all seem to be decent chaps.
Although I think the fact that it's at Warhammer World might cause a few problems, following the recent 'pruning' by forge world I can see more players turning to *cough*alternative manufacturers*cough* to finish/build armies, so that may put a few off.

Curis

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The problem with the date for BotCh is that this year it clashed with London 2009. I doubt Epic's popular enough to have two simultaneous events, even if one's in the Midlands and the other in the Sarf.

Throwing some more ideas around, Dice Not Included weekend before last ran another awesomely-successful Hordes and Warmachine tournament. I was sizing up the venue with an eye on running an Epic event there, doubly so as I'd like to invest some of the club's terrain fund into Epic scale stuff. The nice thing about that is you could pick and choose a date, allow alternative manufacturers and run it however you please.

Curis

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I think 2k's too small for Epic. Howabout making people pick three 1,500 point lists and combining them in different ways to get 3,000 and 4.500 games? Let people even mix and match different lists for variety (with only five offical races, three of them humanesque the fluff will stretch to most things).

Mephiston

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Some off the cuff comments.

Sliding points. 2000 is too small in general for a game, and 2 hours is quite tight for 3,000 points. With some armies being able to legally add the chunks may cause issues but is an interesting idea to explore. The idea of combining 1500 point armies raised the 1/3rd limit issue. Is this across the 3 lists or does each list have to comply?

The Epic community is probably too small to sustain simultaneous tournaments. In 2008 the CC and GW GT were back to back weekends and as a result both only got about 12 players. July is currently empty in the Epic Calendar and as the accommodation is no longer available for London it may be possible to move that so a clash can be avoided.

WHW is still a favourite location as it seems relatively central for most players. 'Counts as' models is an issue, but on the plus side many of the GW staff wouldn't know what epic models they produce anyway!

However, let us know how epic-uk can help you and we will. More tournaments and more players are our ultimate goal.

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Last edited by Mephiston (2009-06-29 16:14:22)

skcuzzlebumm

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Ok bit of info for Si and you guys regarding BotC and running things at WW.

BotC 2010 is already booked for last weekend in June next year. As WW is a VERY popular venue they restrict non GW events to the last 2 weekends of each month, factor in that plenty of GW events fall on those last 2 weekends as well and you are left with very few potential dates and a LOT of competition for it. I actually booked next years BotC at the start of January this year!!!! (max 18 month booking period)

If you guys are looking to run it on a different date then go for it but get booking soon!

That said i would much prefer Epic BotC to be part of the BotC weekend for the obvious reason that BotC is as much about the social get together it has become as it is about the games. If it is on the same weekend don't worry i won't be inolved in anyway with the rules etc etc, that will be down to Si or whoever else wants to take charge, just as WFB BotC is Jonny's tournament not mine.

What i will say is that if you are going to be there on the same weekend you need to be aware that GW also limit the maximum number of tables that can be used for a non GW event to no more than 40 6x4's (80 gamers)

With WFB and 40k taking at least 30 of those (30 gamers to each system) as they are much more popular i would only be able to give you guys a max of 10 boards.

Also i know that Barney will most likely be VERY keen to get BB BotC to happen next year so that is going to potentially cause conflict there.

What would be the realistic number of players you would be looking for?

If you had say 12 tickets that would take up 6 boards for epic leaving 4 boards for BB. Now as you can fit 2 pitches onto a single 6x4 that would still allow space for 16 BB players.

This is all just spit balling btw.

Final thing to be aware of is that ALL the systems MUST have lunch at the same time and MUST have the evening meal at the same time - there is NO flexibility from GW on this as it would cause them too many issues with catering costs. Also the basic time frames in terms of earliest start, latest finish etc are pretty much what we worked to this year.

Finally touching on what Mephiston says about "Counts As" - that is not an issue as far as GW is concerned provided you don't use any NON-GW models.

any other info you guys could do with?

Jeridian

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With regard to the closed-door system of BotCh I've a solution. Run the event appended to BotCh rather than as part of it. Give it its own sub-brand ("Battle of the Microchumps") and then tout it as though it's an entirely separate tournament to BotCh. It keeps the other systems protected, but cultivates the player base needed to make the Specialist Game runt systems reach the minimum threshold for players.

Possible idea, but I wasn't planning that extreme.

What I meant was when BotCh 40k/WFB open bookings to members, we just open bookings to all Epic players. Also, I don't know if BotCh is advertised outside of the Flame On forum and word of mouth (and it hasn't needed to be)- the Epic tournament would need advertisement on TacComms and EpicUK with diplomatic approaches to each. We can't exactly hide the fact 40k and WFB can be played on the day, but we can advertise Epic more widely and put tickets for general sale earlier.

Maybe you could employ the Epic UK ruleset, and open it up to that lot, they all seem to be decent chaps.

I'd be likely to employ the EpicUK Codex's, rules ammendments, etc- but it's too early to start requesting support or promising a tournament will go ahead.

The problem with the date for BotCh is that this year it clashed with London 2009. I doubt Epic's popular enough to have two simultaneous events, even if one's in the Midlands and the other in the Sarf.

That could be troublesome.

Throwing some more ideas around, Dice Not Included weekend before last ran another awesomely-successful Hordes and Warmachine tournament. I was sizing up the venue with an eye on running an Epic event there, doubly so as I'd like to invest some of the club's terrain fund into Epic scale stuff. The nice thing about that is you could pick and choose a date, allow alternative manufacturers and run it however you please.

Running a BotCh tournament not at BotCh kind of defeats the point, but running another tournament at DNI for Epic would be good, I'm too lazy to contribute more than suggestions and possibly terrain. It has a lot of positives as you've just mentioned- but it isn't BotCh.

I think 2k's too small for Epic. Howabout making people pick three 1,500 point lists and combining them in different ways to get 3,000 and 4.500 games? Let people even mix and match different lists for variety (with only five offical races, three of them humanesque the fluff will stretch to most things).

1200pts is too small for Warhammer (2000pts), 1000pts is too small for 40k (1500pts), 2000pts of Epic is different- part of BotCh is prying tournament players from their stagnant comfort zone. Every year for WFB and 40k there are various suggestions and comments that boil down to 'I want a 2000pts standard mission Warhammer tournament' which make me cringe because surely there's enough tournaments like this.

Your 1500pts interchangeable segments idea I'll consider- but bear in mind we must stick to the BotCh time schedule- the first two games get 90min each, next two 120min, last two 180min.
The 'ally' system looks highly open to abuse I'm afraid, I'll have a Leman Russ Tank Co as BTS, some Shadowswords, then some Thunderhawk-borne Marines. Who's Strategy rating is used?

Sliding points. 2000 is too small in general for a game, and 2 hours is quite tight for 3,000 points. With some armies being able to legally add the chunks may cause issues but is an interesting idea to explore. The idea of combining 1500 point armies raised the 1/3rd limit issue. Is this across the 3 lists or does each list have to comply?

The time schedule and limited time means the first 2 games must be small, etc. An alternative, possibly...is to merge the first two games into a single 3k game.
3 3k games on Saturday, 2 4k games on Sunday? Still an escalation in pts limits, not as much as I'd like or the other systems, but I can see 2k being tricky gamewise.

The Epic community is probably too small to sustain simultaneous tournaments. In 2008 the CC and GW GT were back to back weekends and as a result both only got about 12 players. July is currently empty in the Epic Calendar and as the accommodation is no longer available for London it may be possible to move that so a clash can be avoided.

Aye, we would be tied to BotCh- end of June date, but I wouldn't change the London plans just yet.

However, let us know how epic-uk can help you and we will. More tournaments and more players are our ultimate goal.

Will do, if it gets off the ground I hope to use the EpicUK codex's and rules ammendments, not least because a big chunk of Epic players are you guys.

That said i would much prefer Epic BotC to be part of the BotC weekend for the obvious reason that BotC is as much about the social get together it has become as it is about the games. If it is on the same weekend don't worry i won't be inolved in anyway with the rules etc etc, that will be down to Si or whoever else wants to take charge, just as WFB BotC is Jonny's tournament not mine.

Agreed, half the point was to show off Epic at BotCh.

What i will say is that if you are going to be there on the same weekend you need to be aware that GW also limit the maximum number of tables that can be used for a non GW event to no more than 40 6x4's (80 gamers)

With WFB and 40k taking at least 30 of those (30 gamers to each system) as they are much more popular i would only be able to give you guys a max of 10 boards.

20 players is (sadly) a very high target for Epic, with 10-14 being a good haul, so we're unlikely to grab WFB/40k tables.

Also i know that Barney will most likely be VERY keen to get BB BotC to happen next year so that is going to potentially cause conflict there.

If a conflict of tables occurs, I'd bow to Bloodbowl- it has double (possibly treble) the number of FO players than Epic does, and it is a Flame On tournament at the end of the day.

Final thing to be aware of is that ALL the systems MUST have lunch at the same time and MUST have the evening meal at the same time - there is NO flexibility from GW on this as it would cause them too many issues with catering costs. Also the basic time frames in terms of earliest start, latest finish etc are pretty much what we worked to this year.

Aye, I'm working my ideas around the time schedule of this year.

any other info you guys could do with?

Not at this early stage. At some point I'd like to edit a BotCh rulespack for Epic when ideas have solidified, work out a way to record results and sort players for round, etc.
Oh, what's the minimum for a feasible tournament?

skcuzzlebumm

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Minimum for a feesible tourney completely depends on if you care about ppl playing each other twice or not?

I think to ensure no one plays each other twice you need 8 players minimum

hello_dave

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Wading in with my thoughts from sitting on the Bus.

2k is probably a little small for a Tournament scenario game, but there is nothing to say that has to be the scenario that we used. It might be that Chroma (or someone else) has something in the works that could be played well at 2K (and, crucially, might have different Victory conditions, forcing more challenging/out of the norm list design).
For example, maybe the first 2k game everyone fights a 'Sabotage' mission, as either the Defender or the Attacker, then the second game is again 2k, but you play as the opposite (so attacker if you defended in game 1).

Then 2 3k (Ish) games, same idea (if the victory conditions are asymmetrical, swap roles, and opponents for game 4).

Finally 2 4k straight up Tournament games.

As for win/lose/draw points, maybe we could nick Epic UK's (scenarios permitting) , it might be good if the potential rewards went up with the size of the game.

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Last edited by hello_dave (2009-06-29 19:41:17)

Mephiston

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London is a moveable feast in my opinion. There is no guarantee it will go ahead next year. If you have a fixed date and want it on the calendar let us know.

Steve54

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I'd second what Mephiston said - this looks like it could be a great addition to the epic tournament schedule - though obviously there are several wrinkles (as mentioned in the other posts to iron out). If you do go ahead then London can move - though with the poor turnout from London residents+issues with accomadation I'd say it was questionable anyway.

hello_dave

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It might be worth asking Barney what he reckons the uptake for Blood Bowl would be, and work out if that would leave us with enough space for a viable tournament, before we get ahead of ourselves on this one , a Blood Bowl team is certainly on my list of stuff to purchase (but I've already blown my 'budget' for this month on stuff for my Epic Space Wolves), so I too will bow to Blood Bowl if it proves popular.

Curis

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Jeridian wrote:
What I meant was when BotCh 40k/WFB open bookings to members, we just open bookings to all Epic players. Also, I don't know if BotCh is advertised outside of the Flame On forum and word of mouth (and it hasn't needed to be)- the Epic tournament would need advertisement on TacComms and EpicUK with diplomatic approaches to each. We can't exactly hide the fact 40k and WFB can be played on the day, but we can advertise Epic more widely and put tickets for general sale earlier.

Ahhh, we're in agreement here Si. Barney advertised the Blood Bowl side of BotCh as "Flame On presents: Chump Bowl" over on

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

.

Barney the Lurker

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Sorry not replied, lost internet at home so can only sneak on at work.

Blood Bowls failure was 100% down to me this year. If you wanted to do Epic, as Chris says you could advertise it on the 'main' epic sites. As the sg scene is much smallerthan fantasy/40k most people know who everyone is, and at least for bloodbowl, there just isn't the cheese culture that the big games have, so there is a much smaller likelyhood of nobbers turning up.

jimmy

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Barney the Lurker wrote:
Sorry not replied, lost internet at home so can only sneak on at work.

Looked down the back of the sofa?

Jeridian

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Oh, I have no doubt BB is currently more popular in Flame On- I'd estimate average numbers at around 8-10.

How's this- not quite as radical-

BotCh- Epic.

Saturday

9.00-9.30: Registration.
9.30-12.30: Game 1 4000pts. (3hrs)
12.30-13.00: Break.
13.00-14.00: Lunch.
14.00-16.00: Game 2 3000pts (2hrs)
16.00-16.30: Break.
16.30-18.30: Game 3 3000pts (2hrs)
18.30-19.30: Evening Meal

Sunday
9.00-9.30: Registration.
9.30-12.30: Game 4 4000pts (3hrs)
12.30-13.30: Lunch.
13.30-16.30: Game 5 4000pts (3hrs)

2hrs may be a bit of a rush for 3k but it's the only way to squeeze in 3 games under the preexisting time schedule (I can't change Lunch times).

Added 06.30.2009 15:22:11:
Forgot to mention, the 4000pts list is the 3000pts list plus 1000pts more.

hello_dave

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So there'd be say 3-4 flame on Epic players, we'd then need 4-5 'ringers' in order to do the Tournament at all, would the extra spaces be split between Epic and Blood Bowl first come first served for fairness?

I also quite like the idea of trying something a little bit different at 2k instead of the two 3k games (which are a little tight in terms of time), the Tournament scenario is great, but it'd be a bit of a shame to stick to it, when the two main systems have such jiggery pokery going on.

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Last edited by hello_dave (2009-06-30 14:48:16)

Jeridian

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The fiddly balancing act is that if we start dicking around with Missions, very small pts limits, etc- we may put off some Epic players, and we really can't afford to do so. 40k/WFB can afford to buck the trend and offer alternative missions, etc, as a much more supported game.

If you can come up with a balanced and fair mission at 2k, I'd be willing to playtest it.

Barney the Lurker

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The only problem with running your own schedule is you'd have to run it by Neil first.

I know he had a few compllaints when fantasy and 40k ran different timescales.

As far as tables go, I'm pertty sure we didn't sell out this year, so i'm sure there would be space enough for both systems, remembering bloodbowl can fit 2 pitches on each table.

Steve54

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Open War discussed reducing the points level for epic - on of their committee had a hissy fit the previous OW, to 2700. It was eventually rejected though - 99% of games tend to be finished within 2 hours. The other 1% would overrun whatever points and whatever time due to the players involved.

Since then referrees have gone round 15+10 minutes before the end to hurry things along and ensure no new turns and it has gone fine.

Mephiston

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2 hours is the minimum for 3,000 points. But if its clear to everyone that the game finishes at 2 hours, and unfinished games are called draws then if players carry on and miss their lunch then that's their problem

skcuzzlebumm

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Barney the Lurker wrote:
The only problem with running your own schedule is you'd have to run it by Neil first.

I know he had a few compllaints when fantasy and 40k ran different timescales.

If you want to run your own timetable then provided the day starts and ends at the same time as the rest of the systems and lunch/dinner is at the same time as everyone else's then there is no problem with me per say.

We did this at BotC 2 in Wakefield and organisationaly it was fine.

The "problem" was the feedback i received from the gamers who said that by doing this it detracted from the social aspect of the event which to them is a prime reason for coming in the first place.

Up to you guys really.

Jeridian

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if players carry on and miss their lunch then that's their problem

Well, it's the slow players problem, not really fair to starve the guy who plays normally but has to wait.
Slow play is a problem in every wargame though, so we'll have to live with it.

The way food works at Warhammer World means they can't wander down to the canteen 20-30min later, as the staff will have stopped serving as soon as the queue stops.

The "problem" was the feedback i received from the gamers who said that by doing this it detracted from the social aspect of the event which to them is a prime reason for coming in the first place.

I think the problem for me was we tried to cram in way too much at Wakefield, I didn't get a lunch break, let alone a mini-break because my games (and opponents, ahem) were slow. There was no social side, as I never left the gaming table. It was a 1 dayer too, so no evening social.

I think the schedule I suggested above only differentiates on the first game (2 games for other systems), missing one 'social' break.
I could be cunning and say the break between the 2 games will allow other system players to wander over and see Epic being played...but preferably not interupt gaming.

hello_dave

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/emailcloak.php on line 67

Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/emailcloak.php on line 73

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFactory::getDBO() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 24

Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 26

Strict Standards: Non-static method JPluginHelper::getPlugin() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 39

Strict Standards: Non-static method JPluginHelper::_load() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/plugin/helper.php on line 41

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRegistryFormat::getInstance() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/registry/registry.php on line 373

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::clean() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/registry/format.php on line 45

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getBool() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 42

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 217

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::_cleanVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 151

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getBool() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 43

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 217

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::_cleanVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 151

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

Well, I guess we could put quite a weighting on 'sportsmanship' for the 2 2 hour games, and just count up the objectives etc 'as is' at the end of the 2 hours if it's still going on. That way in the (unlikely) event that someone decides to be a nobber and procrastinate in spite of being told these two games were tight in terms of time, their opponent can mark them down a fair bit.

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