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Jeridian

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I thought it would be interesting to discuss the development of Epic, as it is on Tactical Command & Epic UK, et al.

I like the idea of completely open discussion, post your idea, get it torn in multiple directions, choose the most reasonable one.
In practice it has caused development to quagmire as idea's are torn in every direction- basically getting a yay vote for every nay- but I think this is still the best method for development provided the designer has the guts to wade through and select only the nuggets they want.

Epic UK dramatically went behind closed doors, and I post now as it seems Tactical Command is starting to do the same (see Tau development). Do you guys thing that's a good or bad thing?

Is the more concise and controlled development by secret committee outweighed by the animosity of those made irrelevant on the forums or the general cloak and dagger feel where you must be at the 'right' tournaments to get an insight? Or is it better to skip the threads of redundant and repeated suggestions (as I am guilty of posting)?

I guess this thread is just to discuss Epic Development in general- any new changes, any shifts in policy, any of your comments and feelings on the matter.

For my part, as an 'outsider' from the process- of course I'd like to see it develop and offer often ill-informed suggestions. I'd take lumberous democracy over secret parties anyday.
But if and when the army lists are released to us mere mortals I'll judge them on their merits- and hope they are balanced. If they are, the ends justifies the means, I'll use them.

Another interesting development is the 'commercialisation' of army list development, Epic UK has produced 3-4 new SM lists in secret. These where revealed at the Full Scale tournament and so known to select individuals, and will be used at Open War. They will only be available to the 'public' April 1st (assuming no delays) leaving a short space to prepare for Open War.

The message to me is "Come to every Epic UK tournament or you'll be out of the loop", very cunning marketing, but not sure I like being held hostage over new Epic army lists in this way.

It may be a storm in a teacup- but paying for a tournament not knowing what army lists are possible is unsettling. I assume the various Marine lists will be minor variations, but I'd like to know rather than assume before money and time is exchanged.

hello_dave

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For my money Epic development at least seems to be moving forward now...

I think the open model is the better of the two, as there are some pretty good ideas out there, I think it could be better (sticking more to the principles of self-contained finite lists, and balancing agains the core lists, rather than other test lists....), but that's real life.
AFAIK the 'closed' model hasn't really been tried with Epic before, correct me if I'm wrong but even back in the day the list and rules development was 'open', if only out of need to get them playtested? If the product of the closed development is offered up as a 'work in progress' that can be further refined with more testing then great, kind of 'we're 90% where we want to be with this, if you like what you see go out there (or these days log on too ) and break it, give us feedback it all counts'. Otherwise I think given the nature of the community having something imposed won't go down too well (but we've already had that discussion).

Personally, I'm quite optimistic about the development I'm seeing online at the moment (only really following the Black Legion), but there does seem to be a drive to fix what was wrong with the list and not fanboy the changes to hell. If this continues and the ERC can get some more balanced lists out there this year, I think (hope) that it will help convince people that the open method can work and doesn't have to get bogged down in circular arguments.

Stompzilla

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I'm not too sure TBH.

For me there seems to be too many BS lists floating around. 6 fan based lists for the Eldar alone. Christ knows how many marine varients.

Especially when there are easy ways to adapt the original lists to your own needs. For e.g. Saim Haan can easilly be represented by a person taking a large no of vehicles and jetbikes when selecting their list from the Biel Tan base. Ulthwe: guardians, Iyanden: Wraith units, Alaitoc: Rangers and war walkers. Do a few stands of "Special units" e.g. windriders, pathfinders, seer council etc warrant a whole new list and completely different fm arrangement from that of the parent list? Are these units so awesome at an epic level that they need different stats to represent them? I would argue not, as it makes it so much harder to balance and fanboyism does start to creep in. It would be nice to be able to add Fire prisms to falcon Troupes. However the original designers thought it a bad idea. Yet for some reason this option suddenly appears in the Saim Haan list. It's be nice to have 4 stand units of aspect warriors for a reduced cost, again this option appears in the Ulthwe list.

I could be in favour of a craftworld addendum. For e.g. a small section that has the extra units and limitations from each craftworld. So in this case Ulthwe get the benefits of being able to purchase black guardians and seer councils but aspect troupes are moved into the support section of the list and they lose access to the Void spinner, Iyanden may purchase multiple Wraith units for their guardian fms rather than the 1 of each but at a higher premium for the second set of wraithguard/wraithlords and again lose the void spinner (Seems to be Biel Tann only) etc etc.

I kind of like what's happening with Tau development, as it has become too bogged down by circular arguments. I'm working under the impression that once this version is ready it will be released for general consumption, playtesting and trials and feedback will be taken on-board by the panel. Things always work better when they're not done by a massive commitee, as everyone has their own personal bias and vested interests. Also the problem with online is that you get a lot of well meaning people who have relatively little gaming experience sticking their oar in basing their opinions from theory hammer alone.

I concur wholeheartedly with Si's stance on tournament lists and their apparent secrecy. I'd not like to turn up to a tourney not knowing what to expect.

hello_dave

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For the Eldar I could see an Iyanden variant list, if only because (correct me if I'm wrong) you can't do wraithguard/lord only formations out of the Biel-Tann list and it would make sense to try and limit the aspect warriors. The others seem to be minor variations on the theme of the main list (to me), fair enough if these lists are developed, but surely for the purposes of tournaments it makes sense to produce enough lists to provide variety without trying to get dozens of lists approved for tournament play.
I'd be happy with one 'main' tournament list for each race, with a smattering of variety where it makes sense, Black Templars, Feral Orks and Siegers spring to mind as varieties of army that would be very difficult (if not impossible) to represent with their core lists. If someone wants to create their own list (like Si has) great, play it with your local group post it online so that others can poach (and ideas may make it into 'offical' lists) from it.

Jeridian

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Can't remember if I posted this or sent it in a PM to Hena, but I much prefer army list variants that are style-based rather than background-based.

Let me explain.

The Scions list, for example, is clearly a different style- requiring different tactics from the Air Assault list, bringing often ignored units to the forefront (Predators) whilst downplaying the much more common stuff (Air Assault Marines, etc).
There's no way you can play a Scions army using the Air Assault list and vice versa. The style, or how the list plays, is sufficiently different to justify a new list.

On the other hand, background-based variant lists fall into the same trap 40k variant lists do. Often the variation is so minor it's negligible, often it requires the variant army (let's take BA) to be ridiculously pigeonholed into one type of play (Assault Marine spam) just to justify it being a new list.
This is understandable, since the original reason BA, DA, etc where produced is to milk the 40k Marine cashcow, rather than because those Codex Chapters diverge significantly from Codex. Even less so at Epic scale.

So for me the desire to produce dozens of 'official Chapters' or Craftworld or IG Regiment where there's 1-2 new token units and pretty much the same core list is missing the oppurtunity- red or green Air Assault lists isn't really variety.

Hence I agree with you that most Eldar (and Marine, etc) 'famous' variant armies can be produced with a paint job, some background and the core army lists.

Only where a radically different gameplay style can be employed (perhaps the Wraith formations of Iyanden) is a variant list necessary and interesting.

Another trap I've noticed sometimes is the slavish hold 40k has on some playtesters/designers. If it doesn't happen in the 40k Codex, it never does. If a new Codex comes out with a dozen variants of Baneblade, or Leman Russ, or Land Raider, these must be included in Epic lists regardless of how minor or unnecessary they are.

Do we need to get into how the 40k Codex and ruleset is more about pushing models (in both terms) than enacting a wargame?

Where does my homegrown list fall into development? Well, I'd like to think it is stylistically different enough to justify me rolling it out, but the distinction needs to be made that I don't expect Officialdom, or to see dozens of players fielding it at tournaments. It's just a bit of fun for my own personal, friendly play.
I think we might be losing that idea if we keep looking at our every Epic game not as a bit of fun but as serious playtesting to be analysed, judged and discarded often during game.

A huge chunk of the Epic rulebook goes on about homegrown stuff, scenarios, etc that is ignored. I'd like the Gravborne to be balanced (if necessary underpowered) so that my opponent's don't feel shafted by any unlikely wins I pull off, but I'm not aiming for the heady heights of serious protracted development.

hello_dave

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Agreed, the 'homebrew' aspect of Epic seems to have been lost under playing the GT scenario ad infinitum. I think that specific scenarios are the ideal place to put special units too, for example the Death Company made a notable appearance at Tempestora, so a scenario of a handful of blood crazed marines holding a breach against a horde of Orks before the Cavalry arrives could be fun, easily adaptable and would introduce the Death Company for friendly play.

hello_dave

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..Although for all my moaning about the state of the epic lists, after reading some of the other topics on here, I'm bloody glad I chose this game with just seems to suffer from some fanboy filth and relatively minimal codex creep over certain other games out there that seem to fully embrace perfectly legal filth.

Jeridian

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Epic holds the dubious title of Specialist Game- which means it recieves no new support from GW, dead in all but name, this has it's advantages as it means it receives no meddling and marketing schemes from GW either. So lists are produced for balance, not to flog the latest new release.

Stompzilla

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Would this be the rumoured new guard then Daz?

Lets make a set of really terrible rules and then every codex thereafter can have a special rule to let you ignore them.

hello_dave

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::clean() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/registry/format.php on line 45

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getBool() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 42

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 217

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::_cleanVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 151

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getBool() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 43

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 217

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::_cleanVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 151

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

Well from what I was of the Torunament results I'd day the Daemons in Warhammer are pretty much there!

still plus la change, re-affirming my resolve to leave the two main systems well alone....

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