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Stompzilla

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I've been reading a lot of discussion over on Tac-coms about the marine list recently. I'm not sure if it's just because someone with a high post count has had their pants pulled down recently by the marines but they really seem to be under the discussion cosh.

For anyone who's not seem what I'm talking about:

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

The biggest beefs seeming to be Terminators, Warhounds, Thunderbolts and the 2008 errata changes to ATSKNF.

I'm always very loathe to get involved in any discussion on Tac-coms, dominated as it is by the regulars and high post counters but I was wondering what you guys thoughts are on the subject?

Evil and Chaos

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Dude, even I think it's getting out of hand.

Frankly the debates would be a lot more structured and sensible if the Marine Champion (Hena) got a bit more involved.

Plus, stop it with the high post count shit, or I'll track you down and call you names to your face.

Mephiston

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It's just the annual "why don't mud marines work" debate without actually saying mud marines!

And I have to say, hello, I'm mephiston, and I'm addicted to constant debating on Tac Coms! Wish I could stop really

Added 11.08.2010 11:14:15:
But I do believe that the warhound critical should change to something that actually matters.

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Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

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Last edited by Mephiston (2010-11-08 11:14:36)

Evil and Chaos

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It's just the annual "why don't mud marines work" debate without actually saying mud marines!

Yeah, in part.

Inverted even, considering the support Steve G's "air marines are now too good!" angle is getting.

But I do believe that the warhound critical should change to something that actually matters.

I think we can get that one pushed through on the Taccomms lists in some form, even if it's not mine or your favoured implementations.
I understand EUK are considering doing a "stock check pass" over your existing lists at some point so you get to do your own thing then.

Also, sent you a PM about late entry to the EUK GT over on TacComms, got destracted last night away from the PC and missed the sign-up deadline. If you've still got odd numbers I'd like to make it even.

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Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2010-11-08 11:29:52)

Stompzilla

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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Plus, stop it with the high post count shit, or I'll track you down and call you names to your face.

I calls it as I sees it. Just to clarify though I'm not having a dig at any one person or specific group of people - that's just the way Tac-coms is. Also, I have to add, I work on an oil rig for months at a time, I very much doubt you could come up with anything I haven't heard before.

Mephiston wrote:
It's just the annual "why don't mud marines work" debate without actually saying mud marines!

And I have to say, hello, I'm mephiston, and I'm addicted to constant debating on Tac Coms! Wish I could stop really

Added 11.08.2010 11:14:15:
But I do believe that the warhound critical should change to something that actually matters.

As above, Meph. Not aiming to have a go at you (Or E&C even) but it is the way Tac-coms is. You two perhaps don't notice because of a high count and long time served but when was the last timer anyone from FO posted much on Tac-coms? There's a reason for that.

I must admit I do find some of the discussion interesting but rarely feel the desire to contribute, as I'm not keen on being ignored or patronised too.

I also concur with the warhound critical. At the very least it should be an extra point of damage, although I would prefer outright killed - It's a freaking bargain for 275 pts, especially when compared with equivelant Guard, Ork or Eldar superheavy vehicles in that class and points cost.

Mephiston

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I hadn't realised my post count was that high! Most of it is tourney updates and such though. But doing the stat's I am averaging 2 posts a day over the 5 years(!) I've been on that forum.

Time flies when you procrastinate so much

Evil and Chaos

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Stompzilla wrote:
As above, Meph. Not aiming to have a go at you (Or E&C even) but it is the way Tac-coms is. You two perhaps don't notice because of a high count and long time served but when was the last timer anyone from FO posted much on Tac-coms? There's a reason for that.

It's pretty much the way of things on every internet forum everywhere; 10% of the people do 90% of the talking.

That's one reason I put emphasis on running simple click-and-vote polls on Tac Comms, because they normally reap up to 40-50 votes on popular topics, as compared to the 10-ish people engaging in the main debate.

And it's why I think we'll get the Warhound Critical Hit debate settled in pretty short order; I trust the community as a whole to pick the option that will make the majority (Rather than the most vocal) happy.

Those polls are the place where it doesn't matter how many hours you've wasted writing posts, because everyone's voice is worth the same.***

However, the Marine Champion doesn't seem to place much stock in votes (Or debates, for that matter, heh), which has certain knock-on consequences...

.
.
.
***And it's why I get real disappointed when people say "The most vocal on TacComs always set the agenda" or "it is the way Tac-coms is", because whenever I'm running a debate, that is most assuredly not what happens (Salient example: I'd like to make some balance changes to the AMTL list, but the community is against those changes and I ceed to their request), because I always run democratic votes.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2010-11-08 12:25:12)

Evil and Chaos

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And oh yes, please feel free to hop over and vote in the current Warhound Critical Hit Poll (Round 1):

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

The "Shall we do something with Warhounds' CH?" straw poll got 40 votes with 85% in favour of something being done, and now I'm going to run several rounds of voting, cutting out the weaker options each time until we arrive at a solution the majority of voters are behind. Democracy, not Yellocracy, in action. Round 1 has had 30 votes so far.

If the community picks a change from the current "stumble", I'll be requesting of the ERC that every NetEA list use the new CHE.

.

I do hope that, at least in the case of Warhound Critical Hits, Stomp's critique of Tac Comms as being ruled by the loud and obnoxious just got made to look exactly that.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2010-11-08 12:38:10)

Stompzilla

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I do like the votes it must be said and I have voted.

However, that doesn't change the way discussions tend to go down, which is why I started a seperate thread on here, so we can all discuss the topic in relative peace.

Mephiston

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So what's your take then Stomp?

Stompzilla

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I don't really have any problems with the marine build.

Playing with some of the variant lists recently has shown up that marines are harder to play without Imperial Navy and Titan support but not horrendously. I've had a few tight games with the Templars and have to admit to having thrown away some of the games that I lost or just being outplayed. The Titans and Navy support do lend marines a greater degree of flexibility and it harder to play a list without them but not insurmountably so. I also don't have any problems countering warhounds and thunderbolts now I've played against them a few times and always have an eye to this combination when making a list. The metagame at work I suppose.

There's something to be said for having a slight points nudge here and there. I do agree that Tactical marines could do with a points drop and SR 5 Ad-Mech and navy support a slight price rise but It's not desperately needed.

I think ATSKNF should be left alone too.

A lot of the fervour for nerf on Tac-coms at the minute, seems unjustified to me. I must admit to being a bit taken aback by some of the discussions.

Curis

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ATSKnF: From a game design perspective I dislike the halving blast markers in engagements. As has been stated in the TacComms threads it's bloody confusing as a concept and pushes the game too far into the fiddly semantics direction with the whole, "Yes, I know we round but here one is actually less than one, but still not zero". I'd like to see it replaced with crisp concepts and wording.

Warhounds: Putting them at 300 points I'd still take them. (Looking at my White Scars a 25pt increase for my Warhounds would simply mean I drop the superfluous Razorbacks from my Scouts or a Librarian from my Speeders, so no real impact.) Not sure if I'd be as comfortable with them going straight up from 250 to 300 though.

As for their critical, it does seem out of line with the others. I like the damaged plasma reactor hit which would bring it inline with other Imperial Titans. Plus, I dislike anything that uses the scatter dice mechanic as it can lead to differing interpretations of which units can be hit.

Thunderbolts: a 25pt premium on fielding them with the Marines' strategy rating is a bad idea. The high strategy rating (I argue) is used by Marine players used to launch engagements from the air or pre-emptive strikes with vulnerable land formations. I don't see Marine players using their high chances of winning the initiative to ground attack or cap with Thunderbolts. (Well, except to stall.)

Evil and Chaos

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I think a lot of the fervour is down to the semi-imminent release of the NetEA Armies Book, meaning that anything settled now will go unchanged for a considerable length of time. This has pushed the annual debate to a higher tempo than usual. :-)

Combine that increased tempo with the Marine Champion having put off making a lot of nessesary decisions until now, and the Marine list is in a unique situation of having a lot of proposals, few decisions having been made, and an approaching deadline.

Stompzilla

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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I think a lot of the fervour is down to the semi-imminent release of the NetEA Armies Book, meaning that anything settled now will go unchanged for a considerable length of time. This has pushed the annual debate to a higher tempo than usual. :-)

Combine that increased tempo with the Marine Champion having put off making a lot of nessesary decisions until now, and the Marine list is in a unique situation of having a lot of proposals, few decisions having been made, and an approaching deadline.

That makes a lot of sense. Despite my earlier comments, I have to say that I do think it's actually quite good the way things are moving and seem to be getting decided/discussed. Nothing like the last minute for getting stuff done!

The high SR of marines is very useful for TBs. It means they can use an activation to stall and not have to worry quite so much about enemy air engagements, right from the get-go. When used as part of a Guard army for example the Guard must rely more on ground flak because, with their lower SR, they might not get a chance to set up a CAP before the enemy launches an air assault. This one activation can change your opponent's entire plan of action and can go a long way towards being able to do things on the fly, rather than having to plan ahead.

E.g. With armies like Guard, Orks or even Eldar you have to consider where you are deploying in relation to ground flak, how exposed your garrisons are to air attack, can you set up under an AA umbrella and still be able to maneuver onto the objectives How exposed is your ground flak to Artillery, allowing an air assault to slip through etc, etc.

When you have a very good chance of going first and can burn your first activation by putting a unit of TBs onto CAP you don't really have to take account of any of the above. TBs are also an ideal CAP unit, as they are so cheap. For the same cost as a flight of nightwings you get 2 units of TBs. You might hesitate to leave a unit of nightwings on CAP (Or actually use the CAP for fear of being bumped by the second flight of TBs immediately afterwards) wheras a single flight of TBs is hardly a hardship to leave on CAP.

ATSKNF: I'd be quite happy with halving blast markers down to a minimum of 1.

hello_dave

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I think in context the Thunderbolts are more needed in the marine list than the Guard. It's pretty easy for the Guard to shove multiple Hydras all over the place, less easy to get good AA coverage with most marine lists. The only thing I might change about SM would be to place some of the other air assets into the 1/3 allowance (so you have to choose between Thunderhawks and Warhounds essentially), this would make Thunderbolts a tougher choice in the marine lists.
I know that's way off topic and not going to happen any time soon!

I will be voting on the Warhound criticals, something to make it worthwhile would be welcome!

On the half blast markers, why not just say that SM count as having half of he number of blast markers (rounding up), I can't think of this breaking anything and it's one single rule that covers all the bases?

Rug

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The WH critical is certainly off, its bearly worth having, in CC its of most benefit to the WH!

Equally the classic "the machine is destroyed" critical is also off IMO, it doesnt lend itself to tactical or interesting play/ games. I would rather the majority of criticals be "Immobilised", "X Armament Destroyed", "Immediatelly Breaks/ Stands Down", "Looses an additional point of damage" etc with "Destroyed" being the exception rather than the norm.

Evil and Chaos

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Judging by the trending of the vote on TacComms, I think we'll end up with "1 extra point of damage".

My preference would be to use the battle titan critical hit chart as used by the reaver and warlord, only applying explosion hits on a 6+ (Reaver is 5+, Warlord is 4+), but if "1 pt of damage" is what the community wants, who am I to tell them they're wrong?

Jeridian

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I don't have the energy to wade into TacComms, I generally only visit the tournament section nowadays.

From the comments here,

I agree vehemently about the Warhound- it needs a real Critical Hit effect. Playing against them I only bother with Criticals if my Warhound owning opponent insists.
1 extra DC is enough (though arguably a Destroyed isn't out of the question).
Rug- Some good ideas there, I like the idea that a Critical stops it firing weapons (though it would remain a Blitz marcher...).
Your not gonna like my Nids- all the 3-wound monsters are Crit = Dead. I just found it easier and simpler to remember for Nid player and opponent.

The SM single blast marker in Assault is a bit lame- when the Marine player has to get out a whiteboard and laser pointer to explain how his Blast Marker is half the size of yours it's a bit silly.

The general cry for Mud Marines has a reason. Iconic units like Predators, Whirlwinds, Vindicators, Land Raiders are so underused and underuseful.
I bleat on about Hena's Scions of Iron and I'll do so again, that variant list is far, far more interesting than Red and Green Marines.

The point is that trying to adjust pts, etc in the Air Assault (Normal) list to allow it to work as Mud Marines is doomed as it just makes Air Assault better by reducing the cost of units that can be Air Assaulted. Scions gets around this by removing the Drop Pod and Air Assault element, allowing ground-pounder units to be cheaper.

Rug

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Whirlwinds have done very well for me, actually I don't think I have used marines without them!

My conclusions from playing with marine this year:

Predator Destructors are no good.
Mud Marines do work but there is not enough group experience using them.
Still very little experience using certain units, upgrades and combos.
Tacs are too expensive.

Basically there are a few units and list builds which are so versitile and there is such vast experience using them that there is very little impetus to try other things.

Example- THawks are great, but THawks in an Alpha Strike role are still a bit meh, Drop Pods are clearly the way to go but they require practice and experience to get right.

Terminators in Land Raiders- they have so much staying power there is no way they are going to fail spectacularly, why arent they even tried? But people still take the tested Reaver (which I now see regularly fail to make a 650pts contribution) it's not hard to break, fence in or evade, it can't use OW effectively due to it's arcs. Reavers are excellent for Guard, but it's easy to spend 650pts on better stuff using the marine list.

Kev's Marines from OW make a strong case for Mud Marines.

For a tournament it's simply easier to stick with the very well known.

Evil and Chaos

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Warhound Titan Critical voting round 2 opened:

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

I've culled all the least popular options from round 1, so I'm definitely going to be able to push through a change of some sort for the NetEA lists.

Your not gonna like my Nids- all the 3-wound monsters are Crit = Dead. I just found it easier and simpler to remember for Nid player and opponent.

With the variety and number of 'nid War Engines, I think that's pretty sensible.

Predator Destructors are no good.
Mud Marines do work but there is not enough group experience using them.
Still very little experience using certain units, upgrades and combos.
Tacs are too expensive.

Agreed with all of those.
I play "semi-mud" style and it works ok.
I'd go even more "mud heavy" if Predator D's got a good FF rating and Tacticals got cheape.

Stompzilla

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Rug wrote:
Predator Destructors are no good.
Mud Marines do work but there is not enough group experience using them.
Still very little experience using certain units, upgrades and combos.
Tacs are too expensive.

I concur with all of these too.

Terminators in Land Raiders- they have so much staying power there is no way they are going to fail spectacularly, why arent they even tried? But people still take the tested Reaver (which I now see regularly fail to make a 650pts contribution) it's not hard to break, fence in or evade, it can't use OW effectively due to it's arcs. Reavers are excellent for Guard, but it's easy to spend 650pts on better stuff using the marine list.

Both myself and Bob have been using LRC and Terminators recently in Black Templar lists and have been enjoying some success. Although LRC are IMO a better choice than LRs due to the increased carrying capacity and extra FF attack.

I'm also finding that planetfalling a Landing craft (With above Terminators and LRCs) is a pretty good way to go with an alpha strike type army, which BTs very definately are, as it avoids the risk of being shot down, blast markers for coming under fire, gives you an extra activation (Much needed in a BT army too!) and if combined with Drop pods and a bombardment can lead to some very solid and nasty engagements, as well as providing defensive backup and AA to a drop force once they've engaged and conquered. Of course you have to make assess the terrain and play a clever game with deploying the objectives before deciding on your drop zones but tbh with the ability to move the drop 15cm, the size of the LC and the way you can deploy the termies out of the LC and inside the LRC giving them a very large engagement radius for the retain and engage, I've not had too many problems.

Has there been any real experiments with dropping LC before, to your recollection, Rug or E&C - or any of the regular tournament goers?

Mephiston

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I've taken lists to use the LC to planetfall, in fact we played at FSA this year Stomp and I think your post match comment was "worst dice I've ever seen in a wargame!" so my experience probably isn't worth to much!

My list design was to provide max flexibility, which I then ignored and played the same game 3 times! It can work but takes practice and a bit of luck. Pretty much how deep air assaults seem to go historically.

Evil and Chaos

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I've not seen a great deal of Landing Craft use in the tournaments I've been to (I'm semi-regular at tournaments, at best), but my own personal experience is that they're quite underrated. Superb unit regardless of the task you put it to.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2010-11-12 11:29:49)

Stompzilla

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I do remember that Meph, aye. I think your LC was a bit unlucky, squaring up against a Warlock titan in an engagement. Also, very definately the worst dice I think I've ever seen in 18 years of wargaming! On the plus side though, it means that the next time we play I very much fear for my own dice rolls (She's a fickle goddess!)

Mephiston

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JDispatcher::getInstance() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/application/application.php on line 501

Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/emailcloak.php on line 67

Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/emailcloak.php on line 73

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFactory::getDBO() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 24

Strict Standards: Non-static method JString::strpos() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/loadmodule.php on line 26

Strict Standards: Non-static method JPluginHelper::getPlugin() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 39

Strict Standards: Non-static method JPluginHelper::_load() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/plugin/helper.php on line 41

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRegistryFormat::getInstance() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/registry/registry.php on line 373

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::clean() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/registry/format.php on line 45

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getBool() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 42

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 217

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::_cleanVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 151

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getBool() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 43

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 217

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::_cleanVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 151

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

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