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Jeridian

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Well, BotCh 2011 is on the way and I'd ideally like a comprehensive FAQ and Clarifications on the conventions accepted by the Epic community. I want to greatly reduce the awkward moments where a rules question comes up and there is no accepted answer during a tournament game.

For example,

Aircraft on CAP must declare at the start of a game turn whether they will remain on CAP or not, if they do remain on CAP they may not choose another activation type during the game turn. I didn't know this one.

1 What's the convention on Air Assaults and entering the Zones of Control of non-assaulted formations (i.e. Scout screens)?

2 What's the convention on Eldar JSJ being allowed to shoot before moving out of an enemy ZoC?

3 What's the convention on Armoured Vehicles giving Infantry -1 To Hit in base contact? Is it 2 infantry per tank or any number per tank?

4 What's the convention on Barrage templates? Do you use it purely to calculate the number of AP/AT units hit or can they snipe individual Characters, tank types, etc?

I'm sure there's plenty more, please post them. Also please answer what you believe is correct on all of them, to hopefully reach a consensus.

commie bob

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for No 4 - i just used a bit of common sense and added up all the AP/AT hits under the template, the game slows down when you start trying to snipe the opponents SC or character.

3 - i thought for a normal tank [wave serpent, rhino, chimera] it was 2 models.

how many pts were you thinking of doing this time si?

i would like to help out if you need help with anything for botch.

Steve54

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CAP - I've never played it like that or seen it played like that. We always, and if it comes up at FSA, play as CAP running from turn to turn like OW.

1 I'd always played it you can't air assault through scout ZoC but after it came up it seems that it is allowed which I've no problem with.

2 Seems it is allowed though I've never seen it. Something I'm going to take advice on before FSA

3 I don't think it is specifically stated in the rulebook, we always play it 2 per tank though

4 I was happy to play either way, 'sniping' barrages seems to be the convention now. I'd still have no problem playing either if my opponent wanted.

Other things - when is a unit in cover? cna a unit be half in/half out count as in cover but not force a vehivle picking up to take dangerous terrain. I'm fine with liberal interpretation on cover. TBH most of these can be satisfactorily sorted out between players as long as both players act in an adult manner.

commie bob

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Steve54 wrote:
CAP - I've never played it like that or seen it played like that. We always, and if it comes up at FSA, play as CAP running from turn to turn like OW.

1 I'd always played it you can't air assault through scout ZoC but after it came up it seems that it is allowed which I've no problem with.

2 Seems it is allowed though I've never seen it. Something I'm going to take advice on before FSA

3 I don't think it is specifically stated in the rulebook, we always play it 2 per tank though

4 I was happy to play either way, 'sniping' barrages seems to be the convention now. I'd still have no problem playing either if my opponent wanted.

Other things - when is a unit in cover? cna a unit be half in/half out count as in cover but not force a vehivle picking up to take dangerous terrain. I'm fine with liberal interpretation on cover. TBH most of these can be satisfactorily sorted out between players as long as both players act in an adult manner.

think that sums it up nicely.

Mephiston

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Point 3 is in the 2008 FAQ or Errata if I remember correctly.

The CAP thing is actually if you don't make a disengagement move with formations that are on CAP, they stay on CAP into the next turn and can't take an activation in that turn, other than to intercept an enemy ground attack during the new turn. God that was wordier than I intended!

Abyssal Terror

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3. I thought it was 2 per DC, it seems common with engaging and all other forms or blocking with WE and tanks etc, so I would suppose it is the same, have always played it like that. Seems a consistency.

Rug

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My 5 Cents, in reverse order:

Point 4 has a well publicised answer from Jervis, regardless of the fact that it's pretty dumb IMO I would not recommend going against it without a LOT of discussion and community support.

Point 3, I think the idea for limit to 2 bases in base to base contact per DC for cover comes from the same limit for attackers in CC, it makes sense to me, there is a nice symetry.

Point 2, I think it was Stomp who came up with the case which argues that it is ok (ie shoot then move out of ZoC), which seems to have been accepted quite widely.

Point 1, scout screens have long been accepted as a method of blocking air assaults, there is a flimsy case against it IMO, but regardless, I honestly can't see what benefit changing what is already widely accepted would have to the game? Removing a difficult to maintain defensive tactic verses air assaults (which are very powerful)is not going to fix any balance issues.... it's easier to see them being made worse!

Other suggestions for the FAQ:
What happens to war engines when they fail difficult terrain checks? RAW would suggest they are destroyed!Most people agree it should loose 1DC...
The blocking of Webway portals.... how does this work? As they are not terrain features you can cover the whole thing up with a LC etc.

Mephiston

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On point 1 Rug the wisdom of TC goes against you and allows Air Assault through the scout ZOC as they kinda end up screening from behind. So to say no to this, but yes to barrages is not being consistent either

It's down to the players to agree these odd, but contentious, situations in game. If they can't the TO rules and everyone has to stick to it.

After years of endless debates on TC poeple (myself included) still don't agree on all the 'accepted' rulings.

dptdexys

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Jeridian wrote:
Aircraft on CAP must declare at the start of a game turn whether they will remain on CAP or not, if they do remain on CAP they may not choose another activation type during the game turn. I didn't know this one.

Technically it should be played if CAP is carried over it has to stay on CAP although we rarely play it that way. I sometimes ask opponents (when I can remember ) if that is how they want to play and let them choose.

Jeridian wrote:
1 What's the convention on Air Assaults and entering the Zones of Control of non-assaulted formations (i.e. Scout screens)?

Another that is technically allowed as long as the scouts ZofC isn't entered first. I think the only way to stop it from being legal would be to say ZofC go into the air and aren't just flat on the table so an Air Assault would be harder to accomplish on a scout shielded formation.

Jeridian wrote:
2 What's the convention on Eldar JSJ being allowed to shoot before moving out of an enemy ZoC?

Never seen it happen before but if it is allowed then what happens to units that have 0cm move (like Seigemasters Artillery etc.) can they still fire after attempting to get out of ZoC even though they haven't made it out. As an example could they take an advance order and then shoot, they've attempted to get out (same distance can be moved wether they take advance,double or march).

3 What's the convention on Armoured Vehicles giving Infantry -1 To Hit in base contact? Is it 2 infantry per tank or any number per tank?

Played it 2 per AV/DC for quite a few years cannot find anything in the rule book to confirm it though.

4 What's the convention on Barrage templates? Do you use it purely to calculate the number of AP/AT units hit or can they snipe individual Characters, tank types, etc?

I usually play however my opponent wants to play it though it legally (according to Jervis) should be snipe allowed.

Other suggestions for the FAQ:
What happens to war engines when they fail difficult terrain checks? RAW would suggest they are destroyed!Most people agree it should loose 1DC...

Already covered in the rule book.

3.1 WAR ENGINE MOVEMENT
War engines follow the same movement rules as any other unit. War engines that fail a dangerous terrain test suffer a hit (see the damage rules below).

The blocking of Webway portals.... how does this work? As they are not terrain features you can cover the whole thing up with a LC etc.

another technically allowed action though I would be happy if anything blocking a webway was allowed to be assaulted from out of the webway. It could be claimed as it isn't a terrain feature (the Webway that is) then it can go through any formation attempting to block and leave room above the units on the ground for troops to exit.

Mephiston

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The 0cm move in ZOC is covered as they must select to either ENGAGE or an order to move them out of the ZOC, as they can't move the 0CM formation must engage if it activates. What happens if they fail to activate is another question for TC!

Rug

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Mephiston wrote:
On point 1 Rug the wisdom of TC goes against you and allows Air Assault through the scout ZOC as they kinda end up screening from behind. So to say no to this, but yes to barrages is not being consistent either

It's down to the players to agree these odd, but contentious, situations in game. If they can't the TO rules and everyone has to stick to it.

After years of endless debates on TC poeple (myself included) still don't agree on all the 'accepted' rulings.

Gah, TC.....sometimes....!

I'd be happy with whatever a Flame On Committee want to run with, so long as it was explained first and evryone knows whats going on!

Stompzilla

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None-snipey barrages for me.

I don't accept the tac-coms "Decision", as the question that Neil Hunt sent to Jervis was loaded, in the extreme, towards his way of wanting it done and IMO "Tricked him (Jervis)", through clever wording, into giving the answer he (Neil Hunt) wanted to hear.

The rule, in the book has a clarification, saying that sniping shouldn't be done. To me this is pretty clear intent of the rule.

The way it's originally written in the rulebook suggests that the abusing player must position the template to only cover the special unit to try and snipe it and this is what is advised against doing.

In practical terms this means:
1) Lay blast marker so it only touches special unit.
2) Roll dice to hit special unit etc.

With the "New dirty barrage" Tm Stomp 2011 the practical effects are even worse than those that Jervis advised against originally:
1) Lay blast marker so that as many units as possible are under the template,
2) Roll for damage on all units under the template AND for the special character specifically.

So the end result is exactly the same as what Jervis originally didn't want you to do and you get the bonus of hitting all the other units as well. Cheesy cake and eating it.

No amount of clever semantics or Loaded questions to the designer can convince me otherwise while there is such clear evidence of intent on the part of the author in the original material.

So for my vote Tac-coms can go f*ck itself.

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Last edited by Stompzilla (2011-01-29 21:36:48)

Jeridian

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Heh, have to agree. Jervis answer also sounded very much like "Oh, Epic? Ah, yes I wrote that game years ago, it's still going- err, okay, then I agree with your solution whatever it is. Excuse me while I get back to work on 8th Ed Fantasy and other stuff I still remember and care about".

Anywho, I know that players will be amicable when these problems come up, and I know a lot of them are down to personal opinion on the solution (like the Eldar one)- but the aim is to work out a sort of 'BotCh House Rules' to cover them so people don't have to worry about it and know going into the tournament what the preferred answer will be.

Keep em coming, and I'll work on sorting them, choosing preferred solutions and posting it up for people's consideration.

Stompzilla

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Still on Barrages. (Lol, sorry)

I've heard the arguments for the dirty barrage and discussed it at some length with E&C at the BWW and understand where this interpretation comes from.

Basically, because no-where in the rules does it say "models are removed from below the template" the RAW does seem to back up the dirty barrage argument.

However we are then presented with a paragraph at the bottom of the barrage rules, telling us the author's intent, which runs counter to this RAW interpretation. This to me is the RAI.

So by a leap of logic, I'm going to hypothesise that Jervis forgot to add the part about removing models from under the template, or simply assumed that we'd all know that's how it's supposed to be done (Why else have a template?).

Does that seem like a reasonable leap of logic to marry up the differences between RAW and RAI (Given that we're actually lucky enough to have the RAI explained to us on this one) and come up with something that actually makes perfect sense?

Science at work.

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Last edited by Stompzilla (2011-01-30 02:49:33)

Stompzilla

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Jeridian wrote:
1 What's the convention on Air Assaults and entering the Zones of Control of non-assaulted formations (i.e. Scout screens)?

2 What's the convention on Eldar JSJ being allowed to shoot before moving out of an enemy ZoC?

3 What's the convention on Armoured Vehicles giving Infantry -1 To Hit in base contact? Is it 2 infantry per tank or any number per tank?

4 What's the convention on Barrage templates? Do you use it purely to calculate the number of AP/AT units hit or can they snipe individual Characters, tank types, etc?

I'm sure there's plenty more, please post them. Also please answer what you believe is correct on all of them, to hopefully reach a consensus.

For my money I'd say:

1) As far as I remember the rules are a bit spurious on this one. So, unless someone can explain to me why you're allowed to air assault through a scout screen, I'd vote that the scouts win out.

2) The rules are pretty clear on this one The only reason there's any confusion is because it's different to what other armies who don't have the "Hit and run" special rule have to do.

3) 2 seems to be the widely accepted way to play this. Although it's not in the rules, it does seem a bit silly that 20 space marines could hide behind 1 dreadnought. I'm very, very easy on this one. I always plan for 2 per vehicle but have no real problem with the other way either.

4) See the above angry ranting.

Abyssal Terror

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About barrages, not to be stupid or I may have missed something but under barrages in the Epic rule book, latest update, I think it actually makes it quite clear how it works.

The Barrage table lists the hit roll required to hit each unit under the Barrage template. Roll to hit all units (friend
or foe) under the template with the appropriate to hit values. In order to speed dice rolling we recommend rolling to
hit all units of exactly the same type together, and then removing any casualties from those closest to the enemy first.

So as stated, roll to hit all units of the same type, INF, LV, AV, WE, then remove casualties closest to furthest. The problem arises from the word exactly, but the fact you take off front to back makes much more overridding sense and even states you shoud roll all to hits of that type, which sounds strange if it meant about checking characters etc in it.

Logic in this case would dictate that sniping barrages can only be done by luck and precision by ensuring the characters etc are the closest and you get enough hits that don't save to kill them. Simple. Tbh looking over the rules again I don't really see the major issue, other than the use of the word exactly. Especially as characters Tag onto infantry units.

I feel this is the fairest way. It allows tactics, fate and luck decide more than cheeky template placing which is not in the spirit of the game. You would never fire a brrage of artillery at open ground in the hopes of just about hitting command you would try to hit as much as possible. The first person says "Well they were off target" needs to be shot.

Mephiston

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Ok, I'll do the whole "How scouts became a bit poo" explanation again.

Someone discovered that by placing a scout unit 6cms behind a ground formation you could no longer (by RAW) engage the formation in front in CC as when you engage you are only allowed to enter the ZOC of the formation you are engaging. The scouts are not intermingled so when the attackers can't enter their ZOC. This was thought to be extremely "gamey" and the FAQ/Errata was created that allowed you to ignore the scouts ZOC once you entered the target ZOC, as long as you remain in the target ZOC at all times.

With that in mind a Flyer landing is not bound by any ZOC considerations until the moment it lands. So as long as it is in a ZOC of the target, and all the units that disembark do so by entering a target ZOC before the scout ZOC then, by RAW and errata, they can do so.

So by removing the screen from behind option, you allow air assault to ignore scouts.

I'll ask one question. Is it really so bad that 4 sentinels can't stop a thunderhawk from landing on some artillery?

Added 01.30.2011 10:50:22:
The heart of the issue is this one word -

The Barrage table lists the hit roll required to hit each unit under the Barrage template. Roll to hit all units (friend
or foe) under the template with the appropriate to hit values. In order to speed dice rolling we recommend rolling to
hit all units of exactly the same type together, and then removing any casualties from those closest to the enemy first.

At not point in the rules if type defined. Unit, formation etc are but type is not. Jervis answered that type means more than unit type (1.1.1) and the whole barrage debate spiraled out of control.

Rug

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Mephiston wrote:
I'll ask one question. Is it really so bad that 4 sentinels can't stop a thunderhawk from landing on some artillery?

Yes?! Obviously from the point of view of the Guard player! It's a bit of an unfair example you have used, yes 4 sentinels can stop a TH, but its not hard to break through that screen..... Which leads to the next question. Is it really so bad that 8 sentinel can't stop a thunderhawk from landing on some artillery?

Continue with this logic and you come to the question: Is it so bad that air assaults are unstoppable? Is it so bad that you purchase artillary in the knowledge that you can't protect it? Do these questions not strike people as being a bit dumb?

The question isn't: should 4 sentinels be able to stop a THawk from landing on some artillery? it should be: should a general be able to use the forces at his disposal to prevent an aircraft landing on a specific, highly localised, prepared piece of ground?

Scouts have a wider ZoC because of their more dispersed formation, camo, traps, special training etc making them a greater percieved threat; aircraft are hidiously vulnerable when they are landing, the idea that a pilot is just going to say "oh lets not worry about those troops in our LZ who may have just dug a giant pit or all be toting melta guns and krak grenades, they'll just politely move aside to allow us to land and go say hello to their mates they're meant to be protecting"

Why don't scout pose the same percieved threat when someones trying to land box of fuel and ammo?

Besides all this.... it is a tactic, which is being removed, this doesn't seem like a good trend for a "tactical wargame" to be following!

Abyssal Terror

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Besides all this.... it is a tactic, which is being removed, this doesn't seem like a good trend for a "tactical wargame" to be following!

I agree, plus it makes air assualts better. They are pretty good now and fairly common. Just you don't need to make it any better, it is fine how it is and by fiddly with this it just causes a major pain, for those who can't and those who can only defend with AA, with no hope of their Arty or Scouts even being able to hold against an Air Ass. Its a shame.

Mephiston

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Guess you're correct when you consider a drop pod has to move away from the fearsome sentinel instead on crushing it!

So, without re-introducing screening from behind, what do you suggest? My only thought was to have flyers that land have to obey ZOC's for the final 15cms of their approach move. But if feels quite fiddly and will produce slow games as people try numerous moves to find the way in.

Rug

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To continue my rant.... Scouts will stop drop pods hurtleling from orbit, they'll stop Terminators materialising on the target but not an aircraft laden with troops fuel an ammo?!

I can image the planning...
"we must assault those guns, we'll drop on the from orbit in our pods, they cannot possibly have ever seen that and they won't be able to stop us!"
"no, too dangerous"
"ok, we'll teleport behind them and stab them in the back, they wont expect that!"
"no, too risky"
"ok, we'll fly in, they'll probably have seen air insertions before but hey! We'll take a long approach over the battle field, and then hope they don't gun us down as we leave our idling, fuel laden transport!"
"yep..."

Rug

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Screening from behind is clearly silly though, ZoC should not extend through friendly formations. Opposing troops are clearly going to recognise the threat of an enemy who is clearly closer than that of scouts behind. Additionally the ability of the scouts to spread out, hide, lay traps and shoot is going to be impeded by a load of jar heads wandering around.... getting in the way......!!!!

Rug

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More ranting...... barrages this time!

We can only assume that rather than a projectile being launched at the target and then exploding with a diminishing lethality from the point of impact, Jervis envisages ordanance of a calibre sufficient to simply land on the offending area and flatten everything, ie tshellers are as wide as the templates used to show their effects. How else can you explain the equal chance of a character being hit rather than any other bod? Just DUMB, so so dumb.

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Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

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Last edited by Rug (2011-01-30 14:09:24)

Abyssal Terror

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Rug wrote:
More ranting...... barrages this time!

We can only assume that rather than a projectile being launched at the target and then exploding with a diminishing lethality from the point of impact, Jervis envisages ordanance of a calibre sufficient to simply land on the offending area and flatten everything, ie tshellers are as wide as the templates used to show their effects. How else can you explain the equal chance of a character being hit rather than any other bod? Just DUMB, so so dumb.

Barrages to me are what they meant to be, continous shelling of the area, the size of the template. Just like the WW1, so the chance of being caught is much more likely, certainly if you imagine that it has timings and planning to catch those in the open.

Sadly the more and more I argue for either side, just feels very pointless, I feel that sniper barrages slows the game, but both can be argued to be representive of what is actually being done. But I still think that the Epic rulebook states that its none sniper, in my understanding of it anyway.

Jeridian

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Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::clean() should not be called statically, assuming $this from incompatible context in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/registry/format.php on line 45

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getBool() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 42

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 217

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::_cleanVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 151

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getBool() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/plugins/content/pagebreak.php on line 43

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::getVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 217

Strict Standards: Non-static method JRequest::_cleanVar() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 151

Strict Standards: Non-static method JFilterInput::getInstance() should not be called statically in /data04/aroberts/public_html/libraries/joomla/environment/request.php on line 577

Some potential clarifications I may use for you to ponder and reject:

• Barrages (1.9.8)
• Place the template to cover as many units in the target formation as normal.
• Calculate the total number of each Type (i.e. Inf, AV, LV, WE) hit under the template and roll each group together.
• Allocate hits to each group under the template working closest to farthest from the shooting formation.
• If some units are in cover and some are not, split each group into In Cover and Out of Cover sub-groups before rolling to hit and allocating.

• Armoured Vehicles- Terrain Effects (1.8.4)- Infantry Cover
An Armoured Vehicle may only provide the -1 to hit modifier for cover to a maximum of 2 infantry units.
A War Engine may provide cover for 2 infantry units per Damage Capacity.

• CAP & Subsequent Turns
An aircraft formation that chooses to remain on CAP into the next game turn cannot activate or perform another action- it may only intercept as part of a CAP action.

• Scout Zones of Control and Engagements
Whilst making a charge move (1.12.3) an engaging unit may ignore the Zone of Control of a Scout unit from a nearby formation it is not engaging only if:
• The target unit to be engaged is closer than the Scout unit.
• The target unit to be engaged is ‘in front’ of the Scout unit in that a line drawn from the engaging unit to the Scout unit crosses over the target unit or the gap between two target units.
• The charging unit remains within the target units Zone of Control at the end of its charge move.
• The charging unit does not move within 5cm of the Scout unit.

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