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Abyssal Terror

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Seems good to me Si.

Mephiston

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They all sound reasonable to me.

I would add to the Scout clarification that AC use their entry point when determining if they can or cannot ignore a scout, or any other formations, ZOC. AC's don't make a charge move as such so the word lawyers would object once more

Stompzilla

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That's soup-herb Si.

Added 01.30.2011 21:49:46:

Rug wrote:
Yes?! Obviously from the point of view of the Guard player! It's a bit of an unfair example you have used, yes 4 sentinels can stop a TH, but its not hard to break through that screen..... Which leads to the next question. Is it really so bad that 8 sentinel can't stop a thunderhawk from landing on some artillery?

Continue with this logic and you come to the question: Is it so bad that air assaults are unstoppable? Is it so bad that you purchase artillary in the knowledge that you can't protect it? Do these questions not strike people as being a bit dumb?

The question isn't: should 4 sentinels be able to stop a THawk from landing on some artillery? it should be: should a general be able to use the forces at his disposal to prevent an aircraft landing on a specific, highly localised, prepared piece of ground?

Scouts have a wider ZoC because of their more dispersed formation, camo, traps, special training etc making them a greater percieved threat; aircraft are hidiously vulnerable when they are landing, the idea that a pilot is just going to say "oh lets not worry about those troops in our LZ who may have just dug a giant pit or all be toting melta guns and krak grenades, they'll just politely move aside to allow us to land and go say hello to their mates they're meant to be protecting"

Why don't scout pose the same percieved threat when someones trying to land box of fuel and ammo?

Besides all this.... it is a tactic, which is being removed, this doesn't seem like a good trend for a "tactical wargame" to be following!

This is a superb rant! I salute you sir!

Evil and Chaos

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Mephiston wrote:
The 0cm move in ZOC is covered as they must select to either ENGAGE or an order to move them out of the ZOC, as they can't move the 0CM formation must engage if it activates. What happens if they fail to activate is another question for TC!

I'd guess that they'd HOLD, and be forced to try and move out of the ZoC, as with any formation that fails an activation?

If there's literally no space to put them on the tabletop, umm.... :-)

Barrages:
Does that seem like a reasonable leap of logic to marry up the differences between RAW and RAI (Given that we're actually lucky enough to have the RAI explained to us on this one) and come up with something that actually makes perfect sense?

I think that the RAI is clear.

Jervis: "I meant 'type' in the generic sense, I'm pretty sure this is why it ended up as a suggestion rather than a hard and fast rule, as it takes a little bit of common sense to apply."

That line came from his second reply.

Here's a quote from his first reply that should make things pretty clear that the RAW and RAI really do match up:

Jervis : "If players prefer they can roll to hit 'unit by unit' from those under the template, but we'd recommend they not do this (So as to speed up play)"

Parentheses mine, which I feel confident in adding as it says in the rulebook that the speed rolling method is a recommendation to speed up play (Ie: Not the default method).

I don't accept the tac-coms "Decision", as the question that Neil Hunt sent to Jervis was loaded, in the extreme, towards his way of wanting it done and IMO "Tricked him (Jervis)", through clever wording, into giving the answer he (Neil Hunt) wanted to hear.

I've just gone back and checked.

Rather than being "loaded in the extreme" Neal's initial question was balanced and presented no opinion on his behalf.
Each side got an equal airing with their most important critiques of the other interpretation.
Jervis replied, including the line I've quoted above about rolling unit-by-unit.

It was only in Neal's second email that Neal's own personal feeling comes out : Neal says that using "type" in the generic sense is the more realistic-seeming version (Actually he says the converse, that he feels that using the word type in a "lawyerly" manner would result in unrealism), but he wants Jervis to clarify 100% what he means by "type", just to nail down any last objections.
Jervis then replies with that line about using type in the generic sense, and how it's a recommendation rather than a hard and fast rule because it takes a little common sense to apply.

So, the speed rolling thing is a suggestion rather than a hard and fast rule, the core of the rule is all about rolling unit-by-unit***, and Neal was only biased in his second email (After Jervis had already made it clear the rule works on a unit-by-unit basis)... as far as I can see.

As ever, I'm happy to change my mind and join the other "camp" (As I recently did with the Eldar shooting vs. ZoC debate) if someone can show me how all the above (Not to mention the rules themselves) can be read in a manner that supports their differing interpretation. If convinced I'll happily raise the issue over on TC again to see if the FAQ answer can be overturned.

At no point in the rules is type defined. Unit, formation etc are but type is not. Jervis answered that type means more than unit type (1.1.1) and the whole barrage debate spiraled out of control.

A damn good point; "type" (Undefined, just a word) is different to "unit type" (Defined as a rules concept), and noting that (As far as I can see) immediately resolves any remaining shreds of ambiguity in the issue?

However we are then presented with a paragraph at the bottom of the barrage rules, telling us the author's intent, which runs counter to this RAW interpretation. This to me is the RAI.

The paragraph titled "Using Barrage Templates" ?

That's a paragraph of rules about how to use and place the physical template, not a discussion of RAI.

"Extra Blast Markers" or "Extra Barrage Templates" aren't RAI discussions either.

Heh, have to agree. Jervis answer also sounded very much like "Oh, Epic? Ah, yes I wrote that game years ago, it's still going- err, okay, then I agree with your solution whatever it is...".

Considering the reasons Rick Priestly (Creator of Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000) was apparently fired from GW, I'm not shocked that Jervis doesn't want to lose his job by diluting his focus!

Plus, as I've noted above, Neal didn't indicate a personal preference until his second email, after Jervis had already identified which method is the default (unit by unit), Ie: Neal didn't present a solution preference (Or skew the question, either) until after Jervis had already underlined what the rule was.

Had Neal's initial question been biased, I'd agree that Jervis had been "tricked" or "pressured" into giving Neal's preferred FAQ answer, but having re-read the two emails, I don't think he was.

No amount of clever semantics or Loaded questions to the designer can convince me otherwise while there is such clear evidence of intent on the part of the author in the original material.

So for my vote Tac-coms can go f*ck itself.

I'd contend that you've just mis-read the original material.

You've missed the part where the speed rolling method is an optional recommendation to speed play, missed that there is only a reference to rolling to hit units (And nothing about allocation), missed that "type" is different to "unit type" (I missed that, too), missed that Neal's initial email was unbiased (Though his second email was definitely biased), and missed that the paragraph at the end of the page is a set of rules not a discussion of RAI.
You've missed more than that, besides.

Flowing from that mis-reading of the rules, you've assumed that speed rolling is the default method and is not optional, you've assumed that the standard AP/AT allocation rules should be used because you missed what the default method is, assumed that "type" means "unit type", assumed that Neals initial email was biased, and assumed that the last paragraph on the page is a RAI discussion rather than a paragraph of rules and so assumed the wrong inferred intention from the use of the word "snipe".
You've assumed more that that, too.

You've therefore consequentially assumed that the majority view (worldwide) is wrong, that Jervis was mistaken or "tricked" when he picked the majority interpretation in an unbiased manner and explained why the rule is the way it is, and finally you've assumed that the RAW needs to be changed to match up with what you (Wrongly) believe the RAI to be.

As far as I can see, that's the way it is, though as noted above, I'm always happy to be shown to be wrong, and will tell no-one to "go f*ck themselves" if the answer is not to my preference (I actually have none, in the case of barrages).

I feel this (The "Flame-On house rule") is the fairest way. It allows tactics, fate and luck decide more than cheeky template placing which is not in the spirit of the game.

Tactics are used in the "correct" method too, in that the player must take care not to position his units so that important units can be hit by a barrage. The rule is that you must place the template so as to hit as many units as possible, so purely through intelligent movement and placement of your units you can make your command units immune to all but the largest multi-template barrages (Which is the intent behind that "don't snipe" comment, of course). Conversely, poor movement choices will make your important units vulnerable to artillery fire. Ergo, there's more tactics in it for the controlling player than just "stick the character at the back because they'll never get enough hits to reach him".

.
.

***With the intent of the "speed rolling" method flowing in a "common sense" manner from that.

.
.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-01 10:29:31)

Curis

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The Flying Powerfist. Ran into this at Bristol.

Terminators engage Falcons. Falcons elect to use their FF value because...

Epic Rulebook p37 wrote:
Skimmers may always choose to use their firefight value in an assault, even if there are enemy units in base contact with the skimmer. If they do this then the enemy must use their firefight value also.

And also so they don't get powerfisted by the Terminators.

Terminators say that...

Epic FAQ wrote:
Q: If a Skimmer uses its ability to force units in base-to-base contact with it to use their FF ability are the units considered to be no longer in base-to-base contact?

A: No. The ability does not change the status of the units. So even if the Skimmer uses its FF value in the assault the Skimmer and any units that were in base-to-base with it are still considered to be in base-to-base.

And that as their status is unchanged and they're still in base-to-base they still get their +1MW attack, only at the FF value rather than CC.

Evil and Chaos

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Curis: Rules-lawyerly silliness, IMO. Their power fists are Assault Weapons, not Small Arms, and no amount of squinting at the skimmer rules will change that.

The FAQ question is about how units' ZoC is affected if they choose to force a firefight, or how many units can contact them in B2B, or whether they can counter-charge if there are two skimmers touching one normal unit, from what I can see, not about how power fists suddenly get to become Small Arms. It'd be much more explicit if that were the case, I think.

The only way to make a power fist fly is to punch a unit on the ground nearby, kill it with a normal hit, and let the MW hit spill over onto the skimmer, I think.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-01-31 00:22:29)

Curis

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Oops, that meant to go in the Ultramarines thread.

Evil and Chaos

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So anyway, just so that I know what to expect next time I go to a tournament, does anyone still disagree with that War & Peace-esque manuscript above?

As far as I can see any remaining ambiguity is now gone, but it'd be nice to know what to expect at the next tourney I go to...

...I personally have no objection to playing "house rules" changes when I go to tournaments (What are the EUK army lists if not house rules?), of course, but presenting a rules change as a FAQ answer would be the wrong way to go about it IMHO.

Abyssal Terror

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In response to your essay E&C, it is clear you do have your own clear opinion of barrages etc.

I will not quote it all as that would be long and pointless, but I thought I would add some more as a counter from my perspective at least. If it counts at all.

It seems counter intuitive in my mind at least that other rules for removing and taking hits from shooting and combat do not apply to barrages. From closest to furthest.

Plus the idea that speed rolling changes the rules just for speed makes little sense. We know some people roll one at a time, a lot of people roll a lot, but by adding parentese and so on to sque the result and reply is not exactly a very clear evidence for the argument. Your implication makes no sense, nevermind your understanding of the "default method". The norm is to rule many dice, the concept of speed rolling has the same effect, but quicker.

We will disagree on this, no doubt.

On a side point, technically personal toward E&C again, I will remove if people find it inapporiate, but I thought I would make it a bit clear that the tone you speak of EUK rules.

..I personally have no objection to playing "house rules" changes when I go to tournaments (What are the EUK army lists if not house rules?), of course, but presenting a rules change as a FAQ answer would be the wrong way to go about it IMHO.

I find this rather derogatory and condersending. You have on other threads continued to boost NetUK support/apply their rules, for example about baneblades and the guard army etc. I have no problem with NetUk, they take Epic different ways to EUK, that is their right. At the same time, at FlameOn and in our normal play and in a lot of our tournaments if not all, we play EUK rules, by adding comments about how NetUK baneblades are better, do not assist in helping people in their choice of guard army based on such things.

I appologise for my rant and so on, but I felt it needed to be said, in my opinion. I am not shunning your input, just sometimes you have a bit of a propaganda and down putting remarks about EUK. I understand limitations and faults should be aired, but bias can be too clear, your expected rebuttal would be that I also have my bias which is true.

Rug

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Evil and Chaos wrote:
...I personally have no objection to playing "house rules" changes when I go to tournaments (What are the EUK army lists if not house rules?), of course, but presenting a rules change as a FAQ answer would be the wrong way to go about it IMHO.

Good point and agreed, NetEA material does also fall under the label of "house rules", so I'm glad you have no objection to the principle of it! since GW has stepped back from the game good community written "house rules" are the best we can all hope for.

Evil and Chaos wrote:
Tactics are used in the "correct" method too, in that the player must take care not to position his units so that important units can be hit by a barrage. The rule is that you must place the template so as to hit as many units as possible, so purely through intelligent movement and placement of your units you can make your command units immune to all but the largest multi-template barrages (Which is the intent behind that "don't snipe" comment, of course). Conversely, poor movement choices will make your important units vulnerable to artillery fire. Ergo, there's more tactics in it for the controlling player than just "stick the character at the back because they'll never get enough hits to reach him".

This argument does not hold much water.... it could potentialy lead to some pretty silly situations too.

It does not hold much water as characters are not the only victims of sniping, AA is another prime target, which due to the supression rules never sulks at the back of a formation, in fact its best to keep it pretty central in the formation.

Are you suggesting that having clumps of troops with their inspiring leaders as far removed from them as possible (maybe even using scouts) is fluffy? Is making targts for arty to to protect characters fluffy or the kind of tactics we want to encourage? It screams cheese to me!

Evil and Chaos

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It seems counter intuitive in my mind at least that other rules for removing and taking hits from shooting and combat do not apply to barrages. From closest to furthest.

I don't disagree it's a bit counter-intuitive, after all it's caused a lot of confusion with you lads.

But, how do you play Drop Pod attacks?
And War Engine critical hit explosion attacks?
Or the critical hits effect from a death wheel running over units?
Or a warhound staggering on to a unit?

All of those refer to applying hits to units, not to formations, and consensus seems to agree that none of those are applied in a "blanket" fashion... indeed after a while it starts to look like the conventional AP/AT shooting attack method is the exception rather than the rule!

Plus the idea that speed rolling changes the rules just for speed makes little sense.

Yes, but that just puts an internal contradiction in the "northern method", to my view.

There is no internal contradiction in the "majority" view (If I may call it that).

The norm is to rule many dice, the concept of speed rolling has the same effect, but quicker.

Indeed, so, unit-by-unit, but quicker.
Units of exactly the same type (Not "Unit type") are rolled together.
Simples.

That's my reading of the rules (As Stompzilla has posted, there *are* holes in the "northern" interpretation that need the literal words of the rules modifying in order to accomodate that meaning, that's undeniable I think, whilst the converse is not true), and it was also in concordance with the replies from the guy who wrote the game.

Now, you can say :

- That the rule was incorrectly written in the first place, and needs re-writing to conform with the RaI.
AND
- Jervis has gone senile, or that he was "tricked" into his answer, or that Neal Hunt simply "lied" and pretended that Jervis answered his question (Which was raised as a possibility at the WW tournament during a post-game chat).
AND
- That the majority of Epic players who've voiced their opinions are wrong.

...but don't you think Occam's Razor states that that's probably the wrong interpretation?

You have on other threads continued to boost NetUK support/apply their rules, for example about baneblades and the guard army etc. I have no problem with NetUk, they take Epic different ways to EUK, that is their right. At the same time, at FlameOn and in our normal play and in a lot of our tournaments if not all, we play EUK rules, by adding comments about how NetUK baneblades are better, do not assist in helping people in their choice of guard army based on such things.

I have no idea whether the FlameOn guys are all "tournament official lists only" or not.

But, with the threads in this very forum that talks about development of homebrew lists (Ragorie, Mechanicus, Tyranids) or use of NetEA lists (War Gryphons, Necrons), and I'm pretty sure that a few of the FlameOn guys do actually own copies of Epic: Raiders and Epic: Siege, I don't think that it's unreasonable for me to have to said effectively: "Don't use so many Baneblades! If you really want to use Baneblades, use this other list that you also have access to, because they're not crap in this list!".

I think I can be forgiven for thinking that was an okay suggestion, considering the setting.

I appologise for my rant and so on, but I felt it needed to be said, in my opinion. I am not shunning your input, just sometimes you have a bit of a propaganda and down putting remarks about EUK.

Since you don't have access to the Champion's lounge over on Tac Comms, you can't see how completely pissed I am at the NetERC's utter failure to do anything productive over the last couple of years.

Suffice to say I look more fondly on EUK than the NetERC these days.

When a newbie drops by TC asking where to find lists, I send them to EpicUK first, even if they're not from the UK, and the NetEA lists second (Because the bloody things are split up in a dozen different places).

But, that doesn't make everything the NetEA has done crap (The supplement projects are cool, and the community is excellent despite the poor leadership IMO), or everything that EUK has done superb (The Baneblades are rubbish, random commissars is very annoying, and the Marine lists mostly uninspiring IMO).

The world isn't black and white, and one negative comment does not make for a universal dislike.

I understand limitations and faults should be aired, but bias can be too clear, your expected rebuttal would be that I also have my bias which is true.

I do, however, attempt to justify my opinions by supporting them with facts.

I hope that my response has been other than a rude rebuttal.

Added 02.07.2011 15:25:21:

Rug wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
...I personally have no objection to playing "house rules" changes when I go to tournaments (What are the EUK army lists if not house rules?), of course, but presenting a rules change as a FAQ answer would be the wrong way to go about it IMHO.
Good point and agreed, NetEA material does also fall under the label of "house rules", so I'm glad you have no objection to the principle of it! since GW has stepped back from the game good community written "house rules" are the best we can all hope for.

You know me, Matt, I doubt there's another player in the world so fond of house rules than I!
But I do think that house rules should be clearly labeled as such, and shouldn't be "snuck in the back door" masquerading as a FAQ answer... That's just morally wrong, IMHO!

I have zero objection to EUK changing the barrage rule to more suit their players' tastes. None whatsoever.
What I do object to is the silly dance of pretending not to make any changes to the core rules with one hand, whilst doing exactly that with the other.

Are you suggesting that having clumps of troops with their inspiring leaders as far removed from them as possible (maybe even using scouts) is fluffy? Is making targts for arty to to protect characters fluffy or the kind of tactics we want to encourage? It screams cheese to me!

Tell me, does a senior army commander stay on the front lines with his troops, or set up a command post behind the lines, where he is out of range of the enemy, from where he can can orchestrate and control his army?

That screams "pretty realistic abstraction" to me; History is littered with examples of commanders that led from the front, sure, but a lot of them took a bullet as punishment for that choice.

Plus, spread out too much, and you open yourself up to clipping, or surgical airbourne strikes, so it's never going to be as serious a problem as you imply, IMO.

.
.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-07 15:46:45)

Rug

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Ah ha! This is why I snuck "inspiring" in! Characters in the 40k based games are heroic types, not pen pushers (which I'm sure do exist, but aren't that interesting!), they have extra attacks to show this...

Real life eh? Officers in the field (Lt. Colonels down) are expected to lead from the front during planned attacks so they can see what's going on and lead by example (at least in the British Army), it's usually the second in command who hangs back in the CP to handle casualties and POWs and be ready to take over.

Evil and Chaos

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Real life eh? Officers in the field (Lt. Colonels down) are expected to lead from the front during planned attacks so they can see what's going on and lead by example (at least in the British Army), it's usually the second in command who hangs back in the CP to handle casualties and POWs and be ready to take over.

I was more thinking about WWI, where Petain (A "Supreme Commander") did not build his command bunker on the front line at Verdun. (At least, I don't think he did!!)

Is making targts for arty to to protect characters fluffy or the kind of tactics we want to encourage?

Plus, to return to this, I don't give a damn, I think both methods have merit ("majority" is more tactically complex, and "northern" plays faster), and don't care which is used. I only care about being honest and upright and morally correct, and other pointless shit like that. Labelling a rules change as a FAQ is simply disingenuous and confusing.
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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-07 16:07:47)

Rug

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I've done a rough tally from the barrage thread.... My count is 4 against barrage sniping, 7 for and three on the fence..... However only one flame on person posted on behalf of their club. There is clearly no "majority" view.

Some views don't fit into either camp, my view is that a marine tactical unit with a chaplain is still a marine tactical unit and should not be rolled for separately, it's a neat halfway. Otherwise I don't have a problem with what you've called the "majority" method.

WW1 Supreme Commanders don't make the greatest basis for modelling how an Ork Warboss, Khorne Lord, or Emperor's Champion should be behaving!

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Last edited by Rug (2011-02-07 17:16:09)

Abyssal Terror

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E&C it wasn't a rude rebuttal, but I think you missed the point once or twice.

As to those list of effects it is pretty much the same as we do with barrages, as far as I know, don't see why it should be different, roll to hit on all the units, then apply hits to formation, closest to furthest, then saves.

About the contradiction, I don't see it. The question of rolling 1 at a time to 7 doesn't contradict itself. The fact that speeding the gaming up by rolling many changes the rules is more contradictive. It would be like saying well I am going to roll to wound against every single indivial wound on a space marine then make his save. Which essentially is what you are doing with the other method, especially when with new 40k method makes a good parrellel, even though made at different times.

I never mentioned that Jevis has gone senile or lied or tricked, nor do i cross it out... not that it really others me a whole lot. Your use of Occum's Razor is in my opinion flawed, the simplest solution would be to use normal shooting rules, which is the simplest solution. Saying about how the rule was decided/reinterpreted, well your Occum's Razor probably correct, however it doesn't have to be right.

About the other lists, I was not putting down NetUK at all, you misunderstood. I was commenting on how a new player using a EUK list, going to play with and against EUK list doesn't need to be confused by the other NetUK lists at taht time, and their effect on the units involved. My main emphasis was on the tone at that time, just ahve got the misunderstanding/misread of what I said. A number of us, myself included are coming up with lists, but as witht he above, the time wasn't right for which baneblades are better, IMO. I was only using the Baneblade as a recent example, I recall some other times as well.

About characters, I would like to mention this is the 41st Millenium, give or take, but A space marine Captain is a badass, in all the fluff etc and does lead fromt eh front, a guard commander might hide a lil but a commissar wouldn't, an auturch, front , Warboss front, basically everyone bar that lil human commander makes sense to be at the front line. Risks are involved, fair enough, but its the players choice, a lot of these guys are better in combat, so you make the choice get close or hide at the back.

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Last edited by Abyssal Terror (2011-02-07 17:18:47)

Jeridian

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Oh boy.

So anyway, just so that I know what to expect next time I go to a tournament, does anyone still disagree with that War & Peace-esque manuscript above?

I don't think there's any danger of you attending BotCh or most of the other Epic UK events TBH so we can all sleep soundly on that count.

Okay, serious face on.

That 'classic novel' is still very much WIP, the whole point was to post up to get agreement and also to highlight other ambiguities. All voices are heard, though particular weight is likely to be given to those who might actually attend- not so much that they are 'right' but that they will be the ones playing with the house rules whichever way they go.

The actual PDF document when it's finished and put up to view is split into Rules Clarifications (at the moment the existing ones about Black Legion and Pre-Measuring), FAQ's (mainly explaining the points limits complexities) and Rules Conventions (the new section with all the 'made-up' house rule stuff). So it's not rules change by the back door, it's through your front window. My morality is saved.

Onto the meat of the argument- Barrages.

First argument- fluff. Barrages are indiscriminate death from above, only luck will spare a soldier be he a grunt or the supreme commander. This is represented by the armour save- and sniping anyone under it.
But what else is indiscriminate? What else could quite easily miss all the soldiers in between and take out the supreme commander?

Machine guns, cannons, even small arms fire....pretty much every weapon in Epic has a claim to randomly sniping important units deeper in the formation through the vagarities and cruelties of warfare.

So the fluff point is moot. Either all weapons have random sniper (perhaps randomly selecting which units are hit with normal shooting in a pre-save stage) or all weapons use the simpler, more abstract front-to-back method as recommended in the core Shooting rules 1.9.6.

Second argument- tactics. There is absolutely nothing more 'tactical' about either method. Nor do I believe the intention of the rules was for players to meticulously micro-manage every formation so that there is this bizarre 'side-bulge' specifically calculated to include fewer units than the 'main bulge' and the important units- to invoke the Barrage rule to target the most. Having important units become impervious to Barrages by the magnetic ability of the 'main bulge' is pretty absurd and I doubt it was a mainstay 'tactic' intended for Epic.

Third argument- officialdom. What has Jervis done for me lately...
He wrote an excellent wargame, but we're the one's playing it, not him. I should also mention that this BotCh Rulespack is one tournament, and is in no way endorsed or instructed by Epic UK. Indeed, if I stray too far down the house rule path there's a danger the Epic UK Championship pts may be pulled.
The Barrage rules are on the table, they are not final. If a large chunk of the players likely to attend show up and agree with sniping barrages then as they're playing the tournament- that's the way it will be played.

I'm more concerned by the Scout rule and the dramatic impact it will have on 'tactics' if screening becomes viable again.

A simple solution I think is to say:
"When engaging a formation you may ignore the Scout rule of nearby units belonging to a formation you are not engaging, but cannot move with 5cm Zone of Control of said unit as normal."

This prevents the original problem of a Scout unit behind a normal unit preventing an enemy engaging the normal unit (and the Scout unit behind).

The bigger ballache is the ubiquitous Air Assault. The above rule will make it a lot tougher to land because you can't land within 5cm of the Scout unit, but it will still be possible to barge into the middle of the 'screened formation' having flown over the Scouts.

I think this is tolerable as preventing it requires a chunk of new rules and may tip things the other way making Scout screens too powerful. The added inconvenience of trying to land without being within 5cm can be used to good effect by canny opponents (though admittedly that kind of 'screen' could be done with normal formations).

Another glitch is that this would allow enemies to assault through the 10cm gaps in between a Scout formation if it is 20cm apart. Bah, I'm rambling now and will need to take a close look at it.

Rug

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The "majority" barrage rule did mean my Giffons racked up an impressive tally of characters and Skyrays at FSA, on reflection they earned their points back in the two games the actually managed to fire!

From memory snipped victims:
1 Guard Commander
2 Commissars
2 Skyrays

Remarkably a Tau Etheral passed two saves and a guard SC two too when barraged by my Basalisks an Marauders! The second template the Marauder offers does make sniping far easier.

Evil and Chaos

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I've done a rough tally from the barrage thread.... My count is 4 against barrage sniping, 7 for and three on the fence..... However only one flame on person posted on behalf of their club. There is clearly no "majority" view.

That was pre-FAQ question to Jervis. The only ones still arguing for the "northern" view now are the "northerners", AFAIK.

I don't think there's any danger of you attending BotCh or most of the other Epic UK events TBH so we can all sleep soundly on that count.

I attend three or so EUK events a year, so while I won't be at Botch, if these rules are going to be part of the de-facto EUK rule set going forwards I wanted to note that they should be noted as an EUK rules change, and not a FAQ answer.

Jeridian

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No1- It's a shame 'northerners' are running this event then...really weak attempt at an 'us vs. them' argument bud- especially with the 'southerners' being classed as 'majority'. Let me guess, the 'northerners' are just one guy and his ferret...sigh.

No2- Nice try to create a further 'us vs. them' with Epic UK, but Epic UK have nothing to do with BotCh. I choose to use their rulespacks and Codex's because they are concise, easily accessible, balanced and we've been using them in friendly play for some time. They include BotCh in their Epic Championship because it fit their criteria to do so, not the other way around.

Though I'm impressed your so adamant about controling the rules of a tournament you have no intention of attending.

Again, the Barrage rules may still be the sniping version after deliberation.

Evil and Chaos

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Abyssal Terror wrote:
As to those list of effects it is pretty much the same as we do with barrages, as far as I know, don't see why it should be different, roll to hit on all the units, then apply hits to formation, closest to furthest, then saves.

So those rules are also badly written, I assume, and also forgot to say "Use the hit allocation method from the AP/AT shooting rules"?

I don't find that likely (Occam's razor again).

Abyssal Terror wrote:
About the contradiction, I don't see it. The question of rolling 1 at a time to 7 doesn't contradict itself.

You said that my interpretation of the speed rolling recommendation changed the way the rule worked between the "default" method and the "speed" method, I pointed out that that only happens if you follow the "northern" rule for the speed rolling method.

I never mentioned that Jevis has gone senile or lied or tricked, nor do i cross it out...

You did not, but it is required in order to believe the rule is badly written (And that the Rai is really meant to be the "northern" method).

Your use of Occum's Razor is in my opinion flawed, the simplest solution would be to use normal shooting rules, which is the simplest solution.

No, that solution requires you go look at some other rules (Which it does not tell you to do). It also requires that you imagine a line about only taking units from under the template.

Neither of those are required if you just use the RaW. That's Occam's razor, here.

Saying about how the rule was decided/reinterpreted, well your Occum's Razor probably correct, however it doesn't have to be right.

So I'm technically correct, the best kind of correct? :-)

About the other lists, I was not putting down NetUK at all, you misunderstood. I was commenting on how a new player using a EUK list, going to play with and against EUK list doesn't need to be confused by the other NetUK lists at taht time, and their effect on the units involved.

A fair point, well put... though I had no idea he'd only be playing against EUK lists, I might add, but still, this point I do agree with and apologise on that count.

I was only using the Baneblade as a recent example, I recall some other times as well.

Please let me know about them in PM if you like, it's always good to self-critisise so as to be better next time.

Added 02.07.2011 18:54:53:

Jeridian wrote:
No1- It's a shame 'northerners' are running this event then...really weak attempt at an 'us vs. them' argument bud- especially with the 'southerners' being classed as 'majority'. Let me guess, the 'northerners' are just one guy and his ferret...sigh.

I picked that name partly because of the absurdity of the label (Because it pretty much seems to be "north england vs. everywhere else in the world"***) not to stir up a regional divide. Sorry that didn't come through.

How about "minority interpretation", then?

Also, I owned a ferret for ten years, they are awesome.

No2- Nice try to create a further 'us vs. them' with Epic UK, but Epic UK have nothing to do with BotCh.

I did get the impression that these rules would be used in EUK tournaments going forwards, and thought you chaps had a closer alignment with EUK that you state now. Fair enough I was wrong on both counts then, I guess.

Here's a contradiction in the "minority view"
-===========================================-

Under the minority interpretation there's nothing to say that you take casualties from under the template.
Ergo you take them from the front of the formation.
Ergo, the note at the bottom of the page about placement of the template so as to hit important units makes *no sense at all* (Because you will remove units from the front of the formation regardless).
Ergo, the minority interpretation has a logical gap in it, where you have to imagine there's a line in there about only taking units from under the template.

The rule works fine under the majority interpretation without need for any leaps of logic.

That's not the only example.

Either the rule is very, very badly written, or it's just slightly non-intuitive but with a clear intent. Jervis said it was the latter (Remember that line about how the speed rolling method was only a recommendation because "It takes a bit of common sense to apply"), and I'd say that Occam says the latter is probably correct, too.

***Possible exaggeration for comical effect, again.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-07 19:06:34)

Jeridian

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To cut through all the crap, it revolves around this paragraph:

"The Barrage table lists the hit roll required to hit each unit under the Barrage template. Roll to hit all units (friend or foe) under the template with the appropriate to hit values. In order to speed dice rolling we recommend rolling to hit all units of exactly the same type together, and then removing any casualties from those closest to the enemy first."

Both arguments depend on the term 'type', the interpretation I use works with the only unit type mentioned- 1.1.1 Unit Types Pg9, yours depends on the more generic term 'type' to mean each specific identical unit including characters, weapons loadouts, etc.

In fact, all I need to say to make it a house rules is that 'type' in this instance means Unit Type 1.1.1, and watch the fireworks fly. What's the worst that could happen? The mystical southern massif still doesn't materialise.

Abyssal Terror

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This is the worst thing to argue about. Its all semantics, its all lawyering. Can't we just enjoyh the game. Will somebody please think of the children?

Anyway, as far as I know this is just for BotCh, right si?
If it is, then for our "House Rules" its up to Si to decide what he believes/vote/ however the cut is done to be decided.

E&C, is Occum's Razor your word of today?
I will still disagree with your comments, as Barrages are after the shooting rules, just because it doesn't say look at the section you just read, doesn't make it instantly Occum's Razor, especailyl when that isn't the simplest solution. It takes a longer, its more fiddley and makes the game less fluid and less fun as you sit for 5 min trying to get it over the maximium and the commander, which tbh isn't great gamesmanship. Even though under your/"majority" apporach it is acceptable and even rewarded.

You also cannot state that a rule is badly written when it doesn't go your way, such as the above situations. PS I do not off the top of my head know their exact wording, mainly because it doesn't really come up. If it does we apply logic to it. So being stepped on/rolled over, well they are going to be "Close Combat" hits aren't they, so should be treated the same, and an explosion the closest die first, simple. Is that not simpler? Not Joey Bloggs who is half a mile back and a luck bit of shrapnel its him in the face.

I just read this update again.

Using Barrage Templates: Deciding which enemy units have been caught underneath a circular Barrage template is another one of the things that can cause endless arguments during a game. The method we use (and the default you should use unless you have a different convention that you prefer) is that a unit is affected if any part of the model falls under the template, or at least one model on a stand. In addition, templates must be placed in such a way as to get as many enemy units from the target formation under them as possible within the restrictions for lines of fire and range. This stops players ‘sniping’ at important units with artillery.

Read that last bit... again... is that not the sole outcome of the "majority" Method? Compared to ours? Is that wrong to you? Even though it is there in clear print, that ideal isn't being upheld.

Plus the bit about it, it isn't speed rolling that changes the rules, it says to speed up dice rolling.

I feel like your 'Majority' have taken the wrong end of the stick to the wrong ideal.

It feels like two religions argueing about some silly prophet or something. See Life of Brian.

Evil and Chaos

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Read that last bit... again... is that not the sole outcome of the "majority" Method?

No, because it is an explanation of why the previous line exists. The sniping line is an advisory about how the template should be placed, not about how rolls are made *under* the template... it takes a little common sense to sort out the difference in meaning.

Has anyone addressed this yet?

Here's a contradiction in the "minority view"
-===========================================-

Under the minority interpretation there's nothing to say that you take casualties from under the template.
Ergo you take them from the front of the formation.
Ergo, the note at the bottom of the page about placement of the template so as to hit important units makes *no sense at all* (Because you will remove units from the front of the formation regardless).
Ergo, the minority interpretation has a logical gap in it, where you have to imagine there's a line in there about only taking units from under the template.

The rule works fine under the majority interpretation without need for any leaps of logic.

As far as I see it there are three options:

1 - The rule is written correctly.
2 - The rule was written wrongly in the first place, you need to add a line that removes hit units under the template to make the sniping line make sense(ish).
3 - The rule was written wrongly in the first place, you need to delete the sniping line for the rule to make sense(ish).

1 is the majority interpretation, is most likely correct ref: Mr. Occam and his phrase of the day.
Someone explain to me how I am wrong in seeing only those three options, please.

Jeridian

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If you bothered to read the responses, by simply treating 'type' as Unit Type 1.1.1- the 'northern' interpretation makes sense.

Abyssal Terror

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Is that simple enough for Occum's Razor?

I couldn't help it

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