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Stompzilla

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It's pretty clear to me:

Using Barrage Templates: Deciding which enemy units have been caught underneath a circular Barrage template is another one of the things that can cause endless arguments during a game. The method we use (and the default you should use unless you have a different convention that you prefer) is that a unit is affected if any part of the model falls under the template, or at least one model on a stand. In addition, templates must be placed in such a way as to get as many enemy units from the target formation under them as possible within the restrictions for lines of fire and range. This stops players ‘sniping’ at important units with artillery.

*Emphasis mine*

This paragraph only makes sense if you remove casualties from under the template and assign hits as per 1.9.6. The paragraph makes a point of saying that "Sniping important units" is not a desirable or intentional aspect of the barrage rules. Why would there be a need for this line if you simply rolled the dice for the special unit individually? At what part of the rules does it say that barrages do not follow the rules for allocating hits as detailed in 1.9.6? Since the answer to this question is nowhere, we must assume that these rules are followed when assigning hits from barrages.

Your "Majority" view specifically allows barrages to snipe important units with artillery and so is completely invalidated.

Your interpretation runs counter to the line that specifically states the author's intent - important characters/units are not to be sniped by artillery. In addition, you make a leap of logic that is nowhere backed up in the ruleset about the meaning of the word "type". You also disobeys the rules for allocating hits outlined on page 20 in 1.9.6.

Now, the "Northern" interpretation makes no assumptions other than "You remove casualties from below the template" was neglected to be added because the author assumed that we'd know to do that. This is not too much of a leap of logic because if you assume that this is the case then:

A)The paragraph above, quoted from the rules, makes sense.
B)The end result adheres to the author's clear and stated intent - special units are not to be "sniped" by artillery.
C)The whole section implies very heavily that only units underneath the template are affected, although it is not specifically stated. Examples:

The Barrage table lists the hit roll required to hit each unit under the Barrage template

You are allowed to place templates over your own units, or units from several enemy formations if you wish but all units under the templates – friend and foe alike – are attacked

Deciding which enemy units have been caught underneath a circular Barrage templateis another one of the things that can cause endless arguments during a game. The method we use (and the default you should use unless you have a different convention that you prefer) is that a unit is affected if any part of the model falls under the template, or at least one model on a stand

Roll to hit all units (friend or foe) under the template with the appropriate to hit values.

Place any extra templates so that they touch the first template that was placed, and so that no templates overlap. All units under the templates are attacked with the barrage’s to hit values

*Emphasis mine*

It pretty much does say to assign hits to units under the template, although not quite in as many words.

D)"Type" is also clearly defined in the rules as Si points out.
E) It follows the rules for allocating hits as per 1.9.6

The E-mail responses from Jervis are inadmissable in this argument because:
A) We have no proof that they actually came from Jervis.
B) We have no proof that even if they did come from Jervis, the full conversation is being communicated to us.
C) The questioner's bias is so clear in those E-mails that it casts doubt on the whole thing.
D) I will NOT turn up to a tournament and argue with a new player, who has made the small logical leap listed above that he is doing barrages wrong and that I can "Snipe" at his special units, despite the rules saying that this should not happen, because "Jervis said so once on the internet (Or so I'm told by another guy I've never met and have no reason to trust), years after the rulebook was published and he lost all interest."

So to summarise:

The "majority" view allows you to snipe special units and characters, something that we are clearly told not to do. This "View" also relies on the usage of the word TYPE - in reference to unit type. There is clear precedent and definition of what unit type means in Epic Armageddon, in sections 1.1.3 and 1.1.1 of the rules. Despite this, the "Majority view" does not comform to these clear guidlines. This argument also does not follow the rules for allocating shooting hits as per 1.9.6.

The "Northern view" takes the usage of the quoted sentences above, regarding "units being hit under the template", and extrapolates that units under the template are in fact the ones that are hit and therefore must be removed as casualties. It also asumes that the word TYPE refers to the printed guidlines that describe exactly what unit type in the context of epic armageddon means. It also conforms to the original prohibition about not "Sniping" important characters and units. It also follows the allocation of hits rules.

So if anything the "Northern" interpretation fits with the rules much better and requires none of the guidlines and rules to be broken.

Regarding Epic Uk and Tac-coms, I would say that yes we, as a club have become more or less affiliated (Although the BotCh FAQ is a purely FO thing). We prefer their rules and lists and the way they do business. I, personally also am quite happy to contribute and help out with list development and paperwork in whatever capacity the Epic UK guys require and I am able. I also have a lot of respect for the work the lads have put into this over the last few years, for no financial gain to themselves. Things get done and results are seen and any changes are generally quite conservative which I'm also a fan of. Finally, I think they're a really good group of guys and I enjoy discussing lists and playing games with them.

Although some of the lists published aren't perfect and could probably do with a bit of improvement, at least they are out there and being used. None of these lists are set in stone either and can be later adjusted and they are getting regular playtests that are done under proper controlled conditions by players all using the same rules, table size, amount of terrain etc (Epic UK tournaments). How often can you say that about NetEA lists? The Epic Uk Black Templars had more genuinely useful playtests this weekend just gone than the NetEA list has had in 6 months.

When it comes time for a list review we will all be equipped with a good amount of first hand knowledge of what works and what needs improving. So good lists will simply get better over time. Can you say the same thing about the majority of NetEA lists? How is Nid development coming on?

Don't get me wrong, E&C I admire the quality of the finished booklets (Raiders and siege - although I fail to see the need for an additinal 2 x siege masters clones) and I quite admire the way you got things moving with the Tau and kept the pressure on to produce a decent list. What have they (NetEA) got done recently though? I know that YOU try and get things done but I most certainly couldn't say the same thing about your colleagues. Looking on the Traitor legion Apspot recently, the vast majority of lists there are all epic UK lists - that are currently being played, enjoyed and are producing good quality, quantitive data for when these lists are reviewed.

I can't ever see the NetEA catching up, it's just going to get left further and further behind in terms of both quality and quantity.

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 621

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Stompzilla (2011-02-08 08:17:33)

Evil and Chaos

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Jeridian wrote:
If you bothered to read the responses, by simply treating 'type' as Unit Type 1.1.1- the 'northern' interpretation makes sense.

That does not answer my question.

Set out for me, step by step, how my question is resolved.

Stompzilla

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Above post edited after some thought.

Stompzilla

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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Jeridian wrote:
If you bothered to read the responses, by simply treating 'type' as Unit Type 1.1.1- the 'northern' interpretation makes sense.
That does not answer my question.

Set out for me, step by step, how my question is resolved.

1) Place barrage template so that it hits as many units as possible from the same formation.
2) Count up how many units are under the template and what type they are according to 1.1.1 and 1.1.3.
3) Apply modifyers for cover and type of order.
4) Roll dice.
5) Defending player assigns hits to appropriate units under the template according to what type they are and whether or not they are in cover, starting from front to back from under the area covered by the template.
6) Make saves and remove casualties.

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Last edited by Stompzilla (2011-02-08 05:09:51)

Evil and Chaos

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The E-mail responses from Jervis are inadmissable in this argument because:
A) We have no proof that they actually came from Jervis.

Just that you say this tells me that there's no point in carrying on this conversation.

That you're quite willing to believe that people would lie just to get their own way in a discussion about the rules for a game of toy soldiers is simply odd. I'm going to stop banging my head against a stonewall on this topic.

Don't get me wrong, E&C I admire the quality of the finished booklets (Raiders and siege - although I fail to see the need for an additinal 2 x siege masters clones)

Krieg are no more similar to Siegemasters (Both have trenches) than Ulani are similar to Steel Legion (Both have tanks).

Mossinians are just a scenario list, really, and are a low-tech copy of Siegemasters intended to use some OOP models.

What have they (NetEA) got done recently though?

They got within an ace of releasing their (One year's delayed!) armies book... and then Chroma disappeared again. I am pissed.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-08 08:34:02)

Abyssal Terror

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Actually, E&C it is a very clear limitation of the evidence we have. We are not saying it is or isn't a lie from any party, yet it clearly has the potential of being so and as such should be treated with suspicion. It at least weakens its position.

About people lying to get their own way in a game about toy soldiers... Are you blind? for years people have lied to win games, to cheat, to get their unit to win. From saying Faseers are not on the board when in a vehicle, to Wraithguard flying with Barhorroth. Plus there is the other cheating during a tournament game that can occur. Its not right but it happens, greed is envitable.

Evil and Chaos

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Actually, E&C it is a very clear limitation of the evidence we have

Without getting back into specifics:

I have no evidence that I'm not a brain in a jar being fed information via neural interface, therefore I have no reason to believe anything anyone says to me, including what Neal Hunt says he received in an email from Jervis.

In philosophy that's called the solipsism paradox, and it's regarded as a crappy debate position to stand on ; You can't argue solipsistic autism as a reason not to believe what someone says.

Argue they're untrustworthy, sure (But, from my years of familiarity with him, I'd say Neal's trustworthy), but not that you simply can't verify the existence of their email and so should ignore everything they have to say.

I myself had an email from Jervis myself around the time of the Barrages debate (While he was in the mood for answering Epic-related questions, I figured it couldn't hurt anyone but myself to ask a question of my own)... if I were to post its contents, would you believe it was real?

Or would you say that I was lying in order to prove a point in a debate about rules for toy soldiers?

For me, the fact that Jervis does answer emails tells me that it's most likely that the corrispondence is real (Occam's razor, again), and that it's simply absurd to say that it is "inadmissable" as evidence simply because you personally can't verify that Jervis is a real person with a real email inbox.

Plus, a cursory reading of Neal's initial email shows no bias as far as I can see, and it's again daft to continue saying the contrary just because Neal's second email did display some bias (After Jervis had already said the rule works on a unit-by-unit basis).

It at least weakens its position.

I think perhaps I have just strengthened its position, unless you wish to accuse me of lying.

Anyways, I'm really an octopus in an aquarium, and I hit these keys purely by chance whilst escaping from my enclosure, gotta go catch some fish now. Bye.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-08 18:40:34)

Abyssal Terror

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I never said you were lying, you can neither prove nor varify these emails. Therefore they must be seen as limited. The fact that Neal is your friend and am sure he exists. Does not make this fact more trustworthy.

As a Biologist, I am used to studing evidence and its limitations, I also cover the strengths of evidence. By saying something is weak, does not say that the creator is lying, but that its use as evidence is not as strong as it could be and as such should be taken into account.

You seem to think I believe you to be dishonest or implying it or doing it in order to besmerch your name. I am not. I am just stating a fact that evidence has different values of strength. As you cannot back up the evidence of the emails, their integrity or that they were done without any influence etc, then the source is compremised. That is all.

Evil and Chaos

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As you cannot back up the evidence of the emails, their integrity or that they were done without any influence etc, then the source is compremised. That is all.

I could do so quite simply, by emailing Jervis and asking if he remembers that email from Neal.

But frankly that'd be a ridiculous thing to do, and I won't embarass myself in questioning Neal's integrity by doing so.

Besides, you would then say that my own email response from Jervis was also of uncertain veracity, and would claim the same of the next person who asked him the same question, etc.

Feel free to write to him yourself and ask him, if you are going to hold to such an extreme solipsistic standpoint (He always answers paper letters I believe), or ask him in person at a GW event, if you still hold that Neal's word is of unverifiable levels of trust...

...remember to be un-biased when writing to him, of course. ;-) ...

...that's if, unlike some of the sentiments posted in this thread, you even care about what the writer of the game says the rules say. Apparently the majority of the minority do not.
.
.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-08 19:39:01)

Abyssal Terror

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Although the experiment would prove to be enlightening to find out the result of me emailing him, I think I will pass for now.

Your comment about disregarding you sending another email and getting it back from Jervis if shown to me and varified as actually Jervis would be valid no doubt, but such a no personal, not truly varifiable, without other data, is pointless and able to be dismissed as it has been done in the past or limited. Even the medium of film would shed light on the situation, but then arguement falls to clear decent questions, accepted by both "sides".

That is my reasonable way of putting it, but at the same time the game is old, his intention back then and his brief thoughts now could have changed, another limitation. I can go all day about these, it is my job to do it in Uni so I will desist.

Thank you for the debate but I still side that with the evidence gathered the "Northern"/"Minority view" is correct due to book, with clear intention and precedent in the rest of the rules. You do not and that is your right.

Evil and Chaos

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Your comment about disregarding you sending another email and getting it back from Jervis if shown to me and varified as actually Jervis would be valid no doubt, but such a no personal, not truly varifiable, without other data, is pointless.

Mmmmm.

My dad, who's a retired dentist, doesn't believe in global warming.

Thank you for the debate but I still side that with the evidence gathered the "Northern"/"Minority view" is correct due to book, with clear intention and precedent in the rest of the rules. You do not and that is your right.

Yeah, pretty much.

I do reckon the "majority" are correct, due to their interpretation needing no logic leaps (Something Stomp admitted *is* nessesary for the minority view, for units in/out of cover, and for allocating under the template), but it's likewise your right to believe that you've seen the real meaning of the wording, that Neal has lied or decieved in some manner or Jervis has gone a bit dotty (A nessesary component of the minority view), and that Solipsism trumps Occam's razor, where the solipsists are a bunch of gamers and Occam's gang are two of the gents (Jervis & Neal) who wrote the rules of the game (Which it does, in a purely lawyerly, technical manner, of course***).

*shrug*

***But to take the same tack, I could simply say that I can't prove that you don't really know that the FAQ answer is genuinely the majority interpretation, but have chosen to pretend that you believe it's the minority interpretation, simply because you prefer to play it that way. It goes both ways, of course. Next thing you know, I'm an octopus with a keyboard. ;-)

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-08 21:48:47)

Stompzilla

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You've clearly not read (Or understood) the arguments then Ben.

Your interpretation of thebarrage rules does not follow the precedents laid down in the printed official rules:

The "majority" view allows you to snipe special units and characters, something that we are clearly told not to do. This "View" also relies on the usage of the word TYPE - in reference to unit type. There is clear precedent and definition of what unit type means in Epic Armageddon, in sections 1.1.3 and 1.1.1 of the rules. Despite this, the "Majority view" does not comform to these clear guidlines. This argument also does not follow the rules for allocating shooting hits as per 1.9.6.

Rather than make a small leap of logic that does seem to have clear precedence, all the lines about units under the template being attacked etc you assume that TYPE does not refer to unit type as it does elsewhere and you also completely ignore the line that mentions that sniping special characters/units is an undesirable outcome and should not be done. So your interpretation goes against what we are told to do and not do within the rules and makes a MASSIVE assumption that Type does not refer to unit type, despite there being no evidence of precedent for this assumption.

Wheras the FO interpretation does:

The "Northern view" takes the usage of the quoted sentences above, regarding "units being hit under the template", and extrapolates that units under the template are in fact the ones that are hit and therefore must be removed as casualties. It also asumes that the word TYPE refers to the printed guidlines that describe exactly what unit type in the context of epic armageddon means. It also conforms to the original prohibition about not "Sniping" important characters and units. It also follows the allocation of hits rules.

Which clearly follows all the rules and precedents laid down in the rule book. There's no logical leap other than to assume that when it says units under the template are attacked that it means just this. That "Common sense" distinction is a far lesser offence than going directly against sections of the printed rules and carrying out actions that it expressly prohibits.

As for Jervis' E-mail. I'm accusing nobody of anything. I'm simply listing reasons why it's not real evidence in this argument.

Pay special attention to point D and save your rightous indignation for someone who gives a fuck. Until I see an official FAQ with GW printed all over it and hosted on their site then, what Jervis says in his lunch break is completely irrelevent.

How the hell are you supposed to tell a new player that his, Fully backed up within the printed ruleset, interpretation is wrong because some guy on the internet, allegedly, once E-mailed the writer of the book years after it was published and he'd, by all account, lost interest in it?

It's the height of ridiculous.

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 621

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Stompzilla (2011-02-08 22:30:33)

Evil and Chaos

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Pay special attention to point D and save your rightous indignation for someone who gives a fuck.... It's the height of ridiculous.

Whatever, dude.

How the hell are you supposed to tell a new player that his, Fully backed up within the printed ruleset, interpretation is wrong...

Because it's wrong, probably. The earth used to be at the centre of the solar system, don't you know?

you assume that TYPE does not refer to unit type as it does elsewhere

Yeah, that's because "unit type" makes less sense to me, in context, because the rest of the rule doesn't say anything about units in cover, etc. You have to invent a new line to go into the rule for it to make sense. The "Jervis way" needs no new lines added into the rules.

Also, some chaps who wrote the rules say it's "generic" in meaning, even if you do want to insist they're really just octopuses with keyboards, or liars, or whatever.

I'm done with this merry-go-round. Enjoy slinging more insults at my back, fellas, silently or not.

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 621

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2011-02-08 22:57:18)

Stompzilla

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You really are a pompous dick.

You're right. I did enjoy that.

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 621

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Stompzilla (2011-02-08 23:00:31)

Jeridian

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Alright guys, the troll has been fed enough.

E&C- Don't make me use my mod powers for the first time, I might get a taste for it.

hello_dave

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Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 621

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by hello_dave (2011-02-08 23:36:35)

Abyssal Terror

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We sling nothing at your back, I have addressed you clearly and fairly. And your issues as well as the limitations of your evidence, you ave not really said how I am wrong, nor our evidence is limited nor how it is weaker than the evidence you have given.

Evil and Chaos

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Jeridian wrote:
E&C- Don't make me use my mod powers for the first time, I might get a taste for it.

Feel free to use your mod powers to delete my account here.

We sling nothing at your back, I have addressed you clearly and fairly.

You missed the sub-text in my words (People seem to do that a lot) ; I was alluding that I'll be leaving this forum.

I felt you (AT) made some good points in the debate, though I still disagree with your conclusions. Feel free to PM me over on TC or email me if you'd like me to attempt to answer directly any of your points you feel I've not addressed adequately in defence of my position.

If you don't care to do so, then that's ok too, and I'll see 'ya at a tournament some time. Cheers.

Abyssal Terror

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Tbh I think we will disagree with now, and although stimulating, it will not change anything atm and I have other things to dissect. Next time at tournament I'll see if I can get some better luck with the Thousands Sons instead of the Seigemasters

Jeridian

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Feel free to use your mod powers to delete my account here.

And create a matyr- no thanks.
Your free to comment here as long as it does not devolve into baiting, trolling and vitriol- same applies to everyone else.
A word of warning about the internet- people may disagree with your opinion no matter how well or how strongly you put it across.

dptdexys

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Jeridian wrote:
1 What's the convention on Air Assaults and entering the Zones of Control of non-assaulted formations (i.e. Scout screens)?

If you are wanting to stop the ability to Air Assault a formation whilst landing in the scouts(or any other formations) ZofC then you could stipulate that the scouts(or other formations) ZofC can only be entered if the target formations ZofC is entered first (stops the "enters both at same time" which seems to be the problem at the moment) .

This would still stop the scout screen from behind trick and make it very hard but not impossible to Air Assault into a screened formation, though it may be advantageous to players using thunderbricks.

Jeridian

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The more I read the 2.1.12 Scout FAQ response the murkier it gets.

First off, it's classic GW in the 'off-hand- your being silly for asking us to clarify our rules' non-answer in that the 'explanation' given opens a can of worms.

Here it is:

If an explanation is needed, then let's say that the rule for moving into base contact with the enemy takes precedence over the rule for not entering another units ZOC.

What is stopping me declaring with any formations (including ground troops) an Engagement against one formation behind a screening formation (doesn't even have to involve Scout)?
As long as I can get into base contact with the target formation this takes precedence over the Zones of Control of the intervening formation- hence I can move through the gaps between units of this screening formation ignoring their Zone's of Control.

This version where Zone of Control is ignored is reinforced in the answers for Counter-Charging the closest enemy unit even if it is not of the engaged formation (i.e. your moving into the ZoC of another formation).

Yet the rulebook 1.12.3 Make Charge Move (Pg 25) is quite unequivocal in saying "Note that charging units may not enter the zone of control of enemy units from another formation that is not the target of the assault."

Seems the 'Scout FAQ' response was a poorly worded cop-out in more ways than one, classic GW it raises more problems than it answers.

I propose:

Scout Special Ability and Engagements
-A Scout unit's Zone of Control is considered to be 5cm for the purposes of an enemy unit making a charge move (1.12.3)
-This takes precedence over the answer given in the Epic Armageddon Official FAQ 2008.

Comments?

Also, if you have any rules queries, the more obscure the better- I want a comprehensive BotCh Rules Queries so I don't have to play god on the day.

Mephiston

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The missing bit for me form the FAQ is "while remaining in the target units ZOC..."

I being super picky here Si but your rule allows infiltrators to "engage" through a scout screen for a double move on objective grab turns

commie bob

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im just going to let someone explain it to me the night before so then i won't forget it. for this scout ZOC charge thingy, would it be possible for a diagram in the FAQ si, i know its extra work but at least then nobody can argue about it. and it would also mean i can understand it easier [i had to ask meph for help at FSA about this rule and i would like to get into the habit of being able to get on with my game myself].

Jeridian

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Please be super-picky, inevitably the rules queries asked at tournaments are super-picky.
Bob, I've added a diagram.

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