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zelophahad

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Lovechunks wrote:
Grotsmeg wrote:
Im going to go, but im going to play with one of my less used armies... but what to use?
May i suggest wood elves, ive never seen you get the longbows and the green face paint out.

I was going to suggest the same, Richard...

Lovechunks

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Benthomas wrote:
Sean:
Or are you going to claim that there is no real difference between S4 (boosted with +1S and +1T) and S8?

No. you miss my point. the point of the difference between S7 and S10 is that a majority of units in the game dont get toughness above 5 so both wound on a two normally knocking out the entire army save, i in no way suggested that strength 4 is the samew as strength 8, if your gonna debate the points of logic in my argument i would ask you dont just make quotes up.

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Last edited by Lovechunks (2011-02-17 17:41:06)

gillus

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Benthomas wrote:
I attended a heavily comped tournament at the weekend and the rulespack was very well recieved indeed, but the complaint that kept going around was about Mindrazor. An example from a game that was next to me: 10 Empire Knights (inner circle) charge about 20 Repeater Crossbowmen, kill a good number, but fail to break them. Next turn, Mindrazor, higher initiative, unit deleted.

Was the Empire player supposed to never charge these units and just stand off and get shot to death. This is why Mindrazor is a flawed spell, because it means people cannot get aggressive against shooty HE or DE armies.

But then the turn around is how does the str 3 elf kill a 1+ save knight in combat without it, it's all swings and roundabouts. The opposing player could have taken light magic and used the I10 WS10 and the +1 attack and strike first..... but my bet is that the other player took a lore with a delete a unit spell (because rolling 6 dice is hard)

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Last edited by gillus (2011-02-17 19:04:04)

Hugh

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This may turn into a bit of a raging argument but...

I'm very much on Ben's side about mindrazor. If you're playing dark elves who have that spell, you can't afford to engage in any combat that will last more than one round as they'll just chuck every powerdice at that spell the next turn. Given that so many units now get steadfast, combats are rarely so brief.

A mindrazor'd unit will usually clean anything off the table it's in combat with, characters, banners and all.

Gillus, in my opinion it is too powerful that any unit on the table can be turned into an absolute killing machine in combat. Why would you be trying to kill 1+ save knights in combat with str3 elves?

vodrake

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I absolutely agree that mind razor should be once a game.

I spoke to sean on the phone about this, he disagrees but my argument isn't about units that are allready strength 6 going to 10 (which is a waste) its about units with strength 3 or 4 going to 10.

"But then the turn around is how does the str 3 elf kill a 1+ save knight in combat without it, it's all swings and roundabouts."

Use something thats not a strength 3 elf. Strength 3 elves arent supposed to be used to kill knights, a spell that makes every unit in your army capable of killing everything else is something that needs to be restricted.

Becuase of the way magic works, just becuase somebody hasnt got an irresistable force doesnt mean you will be able to dispell it either. All it takes is your opponent to roll and 5 and 1, he has 6 dice at it versus your 5. In my experiance you only usually need to get the spell off once for it to turn a game against you, so a limit to one sucessful cast, imo, is needed.

walkingginger

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mind razor is bad, as I have said in previous thread. It promotes staying out of combat, as Hugh has said few combats last one or even two rounds of combat so the no charge option is not available you are already comminted to the combat when it goes off. I don't like the idea that the only way to answer a spell is with another one (lore of light). With the potential for mindrazor you are going to see more lore of death and shooty armies.

Lovechunks

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walkingginger wrote:
. I don't like the idea that the only way to answer a spell is with another one (lore of light).

Thats exactly the point, there is a counter. unlike many of the ranged "kill" spells.

Added 02.17.2011 22:01:44:

Hugh wrote:
Why would you be trying to kill 1+ save knights in combat with str3 elves?

Because a majority of elves are strength 3 and you may have been charged and held.

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Last edited by Lovechunks (2011-02-17 22:02:47)

walkingginger

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but dwellers and pit can be countered by spells so they should be taken off the list by that logic. A spell counter, and only one deck that not everyone can access at that, is not enough in my mind to counter the issue.

if your archers are stuck in combat with knights you should not expect to be able to wipe them out in one combat. Thats what your combat troops for.

jimbo

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this mind razor talk is rubbish only losers cry about mind razor and only losers take knights you should all take deamon armys then you dont care about mindrazor (now throwing giant spoon away)

walkingginger

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goblins is what you want, overkill all round

jimbo

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on a side note if we are banning mind razor then we might aswell but all spell on the list because plus 4t is too power so is time warp and and all the death spells cause they kill your lords, sack deamons lets all take dwarfs that way no one can have magic phases not even tomb kings, better yet we can just play chess thats a balanced game

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Last edited by jimbo (2011-02-17 22:28:03)

blessed knight

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why not just scrap the top spell and make the signature spells option 1?

that way the spell isn't a 1 hit wonder leaving low level mages with no spells.

Lovechunks

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walkingginger wrote:
but dwellers and pit can be countered by spells so they should be taken off the list by that logic. A spell counter, and only one deck that not everyone can access at that, is not enough in my mind to counter the issue.

if your archers are stuck in combat with knights you should not expect to be able to wipe them out in one combat. Thats what your combat troops for.

Ok there are plenty more counters to mindrazor than a single range spell such as dwellers/horned rat etc., also you are presuming that my wizard has rolled mindrazor aswell. You can of course not charged an already mindrazored unit or shock horror, attempt to dispell it. Mathmatically the chance of it being irresistabled is about 1 in 6, it seems some of the people ive spoken to about it come from the stand point of its always being double 6'ed.

if my block of twenty archers is in combat with some knights ive got a good chance of being steadfast and not breaking, agreed mindrazor there would be powerful if it casts, but then the rest of your army can charge me without fear of it going off on another unit and the critisism that has been leveed at the spell is that if a wizard knows it then you cant charge ANY unit in the opposing force.it just means you have to reserve dispell dice to deal with it. and with botchs only 12 power dice a turn it severely limits a wizards other casting attempts if they need to cast other spells or display remains in plays.
Holding back dispell dice to stop a partcularly powerful spell hitting has been a reality of warhammer for at least 4 editions now.

Whats scarier in a fight a really sharp knife that you can pass around to one your mates, or a shot gun that can eviscerate a gaggle of your mates before youve even joined the fight?

Russ

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"Ok there are plenty more counters to dwellers than a single combat spell such as mindrazor etc., also you are presuming that my wizard has rolled dwellers aswell. You can of course have charged a unit or shock horror, attempt to dispell it. Mathmatically the chance of it being irresistabled is about 1 in 6, it seems some of the people ive spoken to about it come from the stand point of its always being double 6'ed."

bah the next bit doesn't work as well, so skip to....

"...but then the rest of your army can charge me without fear of it going off on another unit and the critisism that has been leveed at the spell is that if a wizard knows it then you can wipe off ANY unit in the opposing force.it just means you have to reserve dispell dice to deal with it. and with botchs only 12 power dice a turn it severely limits a wizards other casting attempts if they need to cast other spells or display remains in plays.
Holding back dispell dice to stop a partcularly powerful spell hitting has been a reality of warhammer for at least 4 editions now."

You're wiping a unit off the board either way with very little the opponent can do about it beyond the dispel attempt. The only difference is that you need to be in combat with mindrazor. It's really fast getting into combat now though and warhammer is still a predominantly close combat based game so really over the course of a game against the big stuff you really want to kill with these spells (so probably units that want to be in combat fast) mindrazor should be more useful. Aside from that mindrazor is also easier to cast.

Personally I don't care either way but I really don't see how you can try aguing for one spell over another when half your argument is saving the dice to dispell.

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Last edited by Russ (2011-02-18 10:46:50)

vodrake

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Lovechunks wrote:
Mathmatically the chance of it being irresistabled is about 1 in 6, it seems some of the people ive spoken to about it come from the stand point of its always being double 6'ed.

if my block of twenty archers is in combat with some knights ive got a good chance of being steadfast and not breaking, agreed mindrazor there would be powerful if it casts, but then the rest of your army can charge me without fear of it going off on another unit and the critisism that has been leveed at the spell is that if a wizard knows it then you cant charge ANY unit in the opposing force.it just means you have to reserve dispell dice to deal with it. and with botchs only 12 power dice a turn it severely limits a wizards other casting attempts if they need to cast other spells or display remains in plays.
Holding back dispell dice to stop a partcularly powerful spell hitting has been a reality of warhammer for at least 4 editions now.

Whats scarier in a fight a really sharp knife that you can pass around to one your mates, or a shot gun that can eviscerate a gaggle of your mates before youve even joined the fight?

If you dont roll the spell, then you dont care about it being limited to once a game cast. Not having the spell isnt a reason for not comping a spell.

I can only think of a few armies that can go over 12 dice, most of which only get there if they roll high on the number of dice they start with. (high elves can get +d3, slanns get +1 for each spell, so 3 or 4? Dark elves can have upto about 10 extra becuase of power of darkness and sac dagger.) And lets face it, the problem with this spell is that you dont need to combine it with any others, it murders units on its own. The differance between it and dwellers is that dwellers takes half or a third of a unit of, this wins you the combat making it so you can run down and destroy a unit that you otherwise wouldnt have been able to do.

The big problem is that the less dice you roll the more likely you will get the spell off. Example, a 4 and a 1. You have 1 more dice than your opponent, which means you have a big advantage to get the spell off. Doesnt matter that you "saved your dice" if your opponent still has more than you.

Also my opponent having a spell that makes it so that I dont want to charge his army becuase he might cast it is one that I think needs comping. Oh, and you cant dispell mind razor if its allready cast, you dont get that option, its not RIP.

zelophahad

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I'm bored now.

commie bob

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shall we go and play epic phil

zelophahad

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Nethrag

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I'd ignore this thread from now on if I were you Phil - I'll pm you if I think there's anything you'll be remotely interested in hearing about
except for this next little bit.

Dave

Are you comping the new moon face of doom spell?
or new improved warpath spell?

No promises until I've got my own copy, aren't getting info second hand and have had a decent chance to digest it......but that large template choose a stat test spell, I'd have thought so.

Ok. Mindrazor then.

Some of the stuff that's been posted in this thread is simply factually wrong.
(mindrazor is not easier to cast than dwellers for example, they both have 18/21 casting values).

I also dont see the massive difference that most of you seem to between making an ASF/reroll unit have high strength (and I'm firmly in the camp that think after you get to S6 it's irrelevant against the vast majority of units) and giving an already high S unit ASF/Rerolls to hit (van hels on grave guard, waaagh, timewarp etc.)

However, I'm not going to go through every persons arguments one by one as I don't have the time - it basically boils down to this.

I'm not comping two of the spells from the lore of shadows.

One of the reasons for this relates to Lees comment as is it can force wizards to take a spell that they are only able to cast once per game (where as if there's only one spell from each lore then you never have to take it if you don't want to).

Part of it is thanks to the steam tank being T10 a lot of armies only answer to killing a stank is either pit or mindrazor (I said "killing" not "causing 4 wounds over multiple combat rounds while losing your unit in the process to make it hard for the empire player to get much use out of it and hoping they dont have a life mage").

Another part is it doesn't feel right/fair.

So, pit OR mindrazor then.

I would ask you to remember that simply because a spell gets put on the list THEY STILL GET TO CAST IT SUCCESSFULLY ONCE, has the spell actually been successfully cast more than once in any of the games your giving as examples? (An actual question not rhetorical!)

My opinion.

Pit: I'm playing against pit with my lizards (dwarves/orcs/low I army). This spell will be cast against me 6 turns in a row and if it goes off once it'll hurt, more than once and its probably killed my temple guard/saurus unit. If he fails to cast it - no biggie, he just tries again next turn.

Mindrazor: I'm playing against mindrazor with my lizards, he's not bothered trying to cast it in his first 2 turns because we've done a bit of manouvering rather than just run at each other, however I now charge into some spearelves with my temple guard who I batter but they hold as they're just about still steadfast (remember max cap of 30 models so units aren't holding against massive odds for that long), next turn my opponent can attempt to cast mindrazor to swing the combat heavily back in his favour. If he succeeds he'll likely batter me, if he fails to cast/I dispel it/I've saved my scroll as I knew he had rolled mindrazor at the beginning of the game, then he'll highly likely be dead before he gets another magic phase.
i.e. there is a much larger downside for not successfully casting it in the turn you attempt to than spells like pit, especially due to the unit cap.

THIS is the reason I have put pit on the list instead of mindrazor, so you can ignore everything else.

If the majority of people (and by majority of people I mean the majority out of those people who buy a ticket and who I'll e-mail poll after we've sold out) would prefer mindrazor to be on the list than pit then that's what'll go on.

I should be able to update the rulepack this weekend with the changes discussed pre-mindrazor wars

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Last edited by Nethrag (2011-02-18 16:38:23)

Russ

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Nethrag wrote:
Some of the stuff that's been posted in this thread is simply factually wrong.
(mindrazor is not easier to cast than dwellers for example, they both have 18/21 casting values).

Hmm, this is in response to me again. Arsey answer or not...

Do you think you could start looking at more than one facet of any argument please before you go off on one about being factually wrong again?

Dwellers is 12"/24" and Mindrazor is 18"/36".

You need to target your own unit for Mindrazor which also is generally a range boost unless your wizard is in front of your battle line or is casting sideways.

Because of the difference in range Dwellers will need to be cast more at it's high power to be in range than Mindrazor does, even more so given that Mindrazor is a close combat based spell. Again the exception being wizards that for some reason are closer to the enemy than your CC units are.

In fact sod it. I choose to look at it purely on the range so factually Mindrazor is a whole 50% easier to cast than Dwellers

vodrake

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it can also be cast into combat where dwellers cant, lol

But anyway, fair enough, for pit is it both versions or just the boosted one thats once per game?

[edit] ignore my question, I went and looked since, you know, the pack is allready up.

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Last edited by vodrake (2011-02-18 18:08:43)

jimbo

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ok lets look at this from an new angle then

the reasons you want mind razor on the ban list is because it makes High elve, Dark elve and beastmen s4 or lower blocks too good? are there realy any other armies that this spell is that good on? i can only thing of warriors and vamps, so out of the 15-16 races in the game the spell is really good on 5 off them, its rubbish on lizzards as there are 4s to hit most the time with no re-rolls,its crap on empire for the same reason and again for deamons, the rest of the armies dont have access to it.

ok lets look at the other spells dwellers bums units in all the armys apart from warroirs, pit is awesome against all armies as you can combine it with the basic spell to drop peoples I,purple sun is good agaisnt all armys that arn't evles or warroirs, 13th spell bums every one as do the rest on the list,

ok so the stat break down with elves you will hit most armies on 3s with re-rolls so thats 88% hit, flowed by 4s to wound 44% then you get amour so if its a 4 up its 22% through and parry so down to about 18.5% so your looking at 5-6 wounds from a 6 wide spear Helve unit with mind razor on 66% wound ration so 16 wounds, so throwing a 6 dice spell and risking my wizard only gets me 10 more wounds i realy strugle to see how that spell is as good as dwellers where it will take of 20 models

my other point being you can buy 3 gobbos or two men of the empire for 1 evle i know what i would rather have, and its not the elve

gillus

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I say ban magic all together!

vodrake

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The 10 extra wounds are in combat, hence combat resolution, it also murders characters.

Agilgar

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I want to make sure I have the character rules right. Am I correct in understanding that in the 1800 point list we can take as many Heroes as we can fit into 450 points, but no Lords; at 2200 and 2600 we can take take however many Heroes and one Lord, and at 2999 we can take multiple Lords?

Flame On Forum

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Lovechunks wrote:

Grotsmeg wrote:

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Benthomas wrote:

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Benthomas wrote:

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

walkingginger wrote:

Hugh wrote:

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

walkingginger wrote:

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Lovechunks wrote:

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Nethrag wrote:

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

Re: Battle of the Chumps 2011 fantasy rulepack

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