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Mephiston

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Just a reminder that the first tournament of the Epic season is approaching. Entire must be in by 13th Feb.

Details here

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

hello_dave

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Hi Mephiston.

I'm a little bit confused, is the hotmail account still active?
I've been meaning to send my application back, but got an email yesterday saying that the epic uk account was now closed.

Do I still send my stuff to the hotmail account?

Cheers

Mephiston

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You can either send it there or to This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it both are being monitored.

And to confuse you slightly further I think your army list will go to matt direct!

Jeridian

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Oooo, is this using the controversial Epic UK?
Basically a two finger salute to the online playtesters and designers with such public easing attitudes like "don't worry, it doesn't concern you" and "it's alright for the rest of the world, but we'll start from scratch without you".

Fortunately it's harder to ban or censor discussion on this forum,

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Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 622

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 623

Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are *required* to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. in /data04/aroberts/public_html/components/com_agora/include/functions.php on line 629

Last edited by Jeridian (2009-01-29 10:11:13)

hello_dave

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I don't think it is, I'm only planning on going to the saturday so I won't see the contraversial lists.
To be honest with French, UK and various online editions of the rules I think it's all getting a bit messy and political, all I want to do is push some 6mm models around a table. One of the main reasons that I started with epic was because it seemed like the right rules for the right job at the right scale, so far I feel that this has been the case, but I can feel the rot setting in....
Bring back Jervis, Jervis will make it all alright!

Stompzilla

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Can someone explain this epic UK thing to me, i feel i've missed something?

Mephiston

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Epic-UK is running this event. As in the past 2 years the only lists allowed at the tournament are GW official.

This will change overtime to include fan produced lists with a target of April for the Space Marine changes. The document will be available for discussion and play test on the Sunday. I'll check with the chairman if the list will be viewable on the Saturday but I think they will be.

Please let me know if I'm still welcome here, but if not enjoy your epic gaming.

Stompzilla

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?!

Now i really feel i've missed something. Why would you not be welcome?

Your help and advice is always appreciated.

Personally i'm all for the inclusion of fan lists - we talking about the black legion and lost and the damned lists here?

Mephiston

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Here is the thread on Tac Comms that has caused a stir

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

The Epic-UK web site can be found at

Sorry. You have to be registered to access this content.

Black Legion and Lost and the Damned are the last officially sanctioned GW lists, currently missing on the GW web site! You can get the pdf's off the epic uk site if required.

Jeridian

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Don't take my posts and comments to be representative of Flame On as a whole, 99% of the time they are assuredly not. You are welcome here, as are any Epic players, but be prepared for frank and honest discussion.

Epic UK has essentially created new Epic army lists in secret that cannot be accessed except at Epic UK tournaments. It has also stated the aim is for UK tournaments to use Epic UK's list of army lists (and ammendments, etc) in future- to provide one stable system.

The idea, and likely the outcome, are noble and welcome.

The way it has been delivered leaves a lot to be desired diplomatically, essentially playtesters and army champions that have been struggling and working hard on new lists and ammendments to Epic for years have been left out in the cold, told it doesn't concern them, that it will only affect (and I quote) 30 people in the UK.

If it's aim is to spread as the 'official' Epic of tournaments in the UK, it clearly will affect more than 30 people, and will affect the new lists and suggestions posted (and effectively ignored by Epic UK) by years-long army champions and the whole online community.
If I plan to go to tournaments, and they're all Epic UK- then I will play the Epic UK version of Epic almost all the time, thus NetEpic, and other versions have less support, etc.

Stompzilla

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Ahhhh. Cheers for that Meph, i'll give it a read shortly.

As for not being welcome, well everyone's welcome here, regardless of views. You'll find we have a wide variety of different folk with different ways of looking at things. As long as discussion is not deliberately insulting there's no problem.

Jeridian likes to speak his mind, as do i and sometimes it takes a while to get used to but never take that to mean you're not welcome because nothing could be further from the truth.

hello_dave

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In my opinion getting more lists ready for Tournaments is only a good thing, I'm just a little concerned about the percieved lack of openness and for want of a better word 'cliqueiness' of this move. Fair play if it moves things forward, but imagine the new player situation "ahhh, you don't really want to use those rules, these are the secret squirrel rules for Tournaments", instant confusion, and no single definitive list to point to for say Codex Marines. Result, more epic marines on ebay!
As far as I know Epic has always been an open platform for ideas, discussion and playtesting lists and rules. Since the lack of GW involvement I think that some focus has been lost (I also think that the sheer bloody mindedness of some of the list developers has held things back too from what I've seen on the forums). I think it's great that the community is trying to get this focus back, I think Raiders was an amazing peice of work, I look forward very much to Black Crusade, but case in point, once this comes out which is the 'right' black legion list to use?

Mephiston

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I agree that diplomatically the announcement could have been better worded, but however it was worded some people will take offence.

All the members of the committee are long standing members of Tac Comms, and the Specialist Games forum before it, some are even netERC Army Champions.

Personnally I really wanted the netERC project to bear fruit, but time moves on and when you see the same discussion constantly re-appearing it all becomes a bit frustrating.

Stompzilla

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Hmmmm.

I'm about half way through reading this thread and already have my doubts.

I applaud the aims of epic-UK and feel that this initiative is desperately needed. What i don't agree with is the behind closed doors development of lists completely seperate from the NetERC. I don't see why epic-UK can't just be a place were finalised lists are consolidated and presented to the UK tourny community based on input from the world community. I think that would be the ideal solution for everyone.

I can't see why epic-UK have taken the line they have. it boggles the mind. Do we really want to be copying the bloody french who have a national character of protectionism and, some would argue, ignorance of the international view.

Mephiston

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Well despite the best efforts of Tac Comms there is no single codex marine book now. You need the core book from GW, then the minimal change list from Tac Comms to play to approved netERC standards. Then if you trialling a sub list you will need both of those and the sub list doc.

I think there is a unified book in the making but as its based on GW's docs it has to be approved by GW and their interest in Specialist Games other than blood bowl is now zero, or possibly less!

Stompzilla

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Marines are in the main rule book and there are the eratta changes - which all armies have. Is there really such a difference at epic scale between green marines and red marines barring the odd stand (I will not for one second believe there are enough death company for a full formation for e.g.)/ unit (E.g. ravenwing)?

Mephiston

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Tangent here, but in 40K were you may have 40 - 50 men in play up to 10 of them can be Death Company. So 1/5th of that force went mad! It's were the GW fluff stretches when you try to apply some common sense.

Variant marine lists are being worked on right now for some of the famous chapters, and Death Company are in there. Also at this level you can play around with the force org chart and remove / add options to reflect background.

Having said all that plenty of people share your view that at epic scale all marines are equal and no variant lists are needed.

Stompzilla

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Ahhh but a 40K game is supposed to represent a small skirmish as part of a larger battle. It's your SC fm - where all the elites are. So those 10 death company are probably it for the chapter/company.

Think about it, if it takes years to train new space marines and 1/5 of the entire chapter is lost to the death company every battle the BAs would be extinct very quickly.

Mephiston

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With epic you have to step away from the fluff most times. I regularly see up to 60 members of the first company of many chapters in a single battle. That's over 50% of their terminator suits in one place!

If you don't put death company in a blood angels list then there is no point in doing it at all as you can use the core list to make an assault heavy army.

Stompzilla

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Thing is though that half the 1st company turning up to a massive engagement that epic represents (Not something marines do often tbh - 1 squad normally solves most problems) is entirely possible. Especially since they're commiting battle cruisers, heavy armour, thunderhawks and the help of the titan legions - that's a major undertaking right there. 1/5 of an entire chapter going nuts every battle is just BS on a stick.

I don't see what's wrong with a couple of stands - similar to Black guardians and seer councils.

Perhaps bigger fms of assault marines and a different pred. Other than that though, there's really no difference between the various colours of marines.

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Last edited by Stompzilla (2009-01-30 13:08:31)

hello_dave

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I'm sort of in the middle on this one, different lists where the force organisation is drastically different (the only marine examples I can think of are Black Templars, Whitescars and Space Wolves, no doubt there are more ) make sense to me, but introducing things like the Death Company, Ravenwing etc seems like the start of a very slippery slope. What about Veterans for the main marine list, or Chaos Possessed marines, or Mega-Armoured Ork nobs, or worrying if my marines have bolters or chainswords, or a Plasma Cannon instead of a missle launcher.
To me it goes against the grain of 'slightly abstracted' that epic has...

Mephiston

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Ok, so if its that important that half the 1st company are there then its a really important battle that will get all the astartes worked up thinking about war and...... wait, why have I suddenly got wings and massive superiority complex?

Some players want their epic marine armies to play to the 40K fluff, and people will generate lists to allow that.

Stompzilla

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I agree here definately.

I like the whitescars (Which can easilly represent Ravenwing) etc. If BA were represented by differences in force org - such as a more assault oriented force then, cool. Same way the craftworlds are represented, with maybe a couple of special stands.

Upgrading one stand of assault marines to DC within a fm of assault marines for e.g. would be quite cool. Whole fms of them though makes me shudder.

Added 01.30.2009 14:31:15:

Mephiston wrote:
Ok, so if its that important that half the 1st company are there then its a really important battle that will get all the astartes worked up thinking about war and...... wait, why have I suddenly got wings and massive superiority complex?

Some players want their epic marine armies to play to the 40K fluff, and people will generate lists to allow that.

But it makes no sense. It would take the chapter decades to recover from 1/5 of it turning to the death company. That's not a sustainable fighting force.

I can understand some varient marine lists but a lot of it depends on how it's done and how many. We already have Whitescars, black templars and standard marines. i can understand Blood angels and space wolves getting slightly varient lists but how far is this planned to be taken?

Mephiston

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Take a look at Tac Comms. There are variant lists for Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Salamanders, Black Templers, Scions (a fictional armour heavy force). There is some talk of a Space wolves list but no pdf for that. Not sure but I think there was somebody working on an imperial fist list too. Can't remember really! (and tac comms won't respond right now).

Now by planned by whom do you mean? Tac Comms has the sort of official stuff that the netERC may or may not sanction at some unspecified time and lots of posts with single user created stuff.

Epic-UK are working on some marine lists which should be in a state for some initial tests at the Sunday gaming day of FSA.

Jeridian

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Marine-centric is one of the biggest turn off's of 40k, when Epic tries to emulate the dire state of 40k right now- by giving us 5 different colours of Marines to the detriment of truly different races/armies.

For me it's not that it's 'unfluffy' (BA will be different to UM even at Epic scale, but then IG Regiment 997 will be different to IG Regiment 234) but it's the priority given to Marines.

One of the things I like about Epic, and the current situation it is in, is that it does not need to pander to Marine-centric gaming, it can give all races equal coverage.

So for me it's not that I wouldn't like to see five colours of Marines, it's that I'd like one colour of Nids or Necrons, etc completed first.

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