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Jeridian

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Well, let's pretend this is not yet another breakaway faction of Epic, but I've found Tactical Command to be way too thin-skinned and ultra-defensive, a bit thread-lock trigger happy.

I really like Chris's idea to reverse the Spawning modifier.

-D3 Spawning if no unbroken enemy within 30cm

I also think it makes background sense. A swarm of Nids with no enemy will just roam around, there is no need or reason for it to rapidly call back stray creatures or drive on half-dead one's to keep fighting.

If an enemy is 'scented' nearby, the Hive Mind will work it's minions into a frenzy, calling out psychically to stray creatures to join the fight, driving on half-dead creatures to rush the enemy.

As for the Titan game, and I think we're both grown up enough to discuss it, I did come away from it thinking way too much was blamed on the Nid army list and this idea that I was supposed to rush squidgy bodies headlong at giant robots to be bludgeoned and beaten.
Being yawned at and told my army is rubbish was compounded by the many suggestions that I should have done moves and tactics designed to kill my army very quickly (like lose the Barbed Heirodule bodyguards or rush Titans, etc)- I got the distinct impression you expected me to March all my army as far forward as possible, inevitable leaving cover, then for me to enjoy being Engaged and broken, shot up and killed by Titans sitting in their deployment zone. When I didn't do this, when suddenly you'd have the uphill struggle rather than me for once, things got pissy.

I'll be the first to admit I have on several occasions been a very poor sportsman, slagging off armies during games, sulking and giving up. It was interesting to see the other side of that.

Titan Legions are a special case, aside from the Sentinels (which I gutted with relish), there is no decent target for Nids to Engage, they are all very tough, Fearless, Reinforced Armour vehicles with formidable firepower.

It very much is like Armoured Co in 40k, what works against 'normal' armies does not work against Titan Legion.

As a result drawing conclusions from the Titan game will be skewed as much by the Titan Legion list as the Nid list. Saying the Nids are supposed to be one-trick ponies running forward and dying is slippery slope.
If Nids where made numerous and/or tough enough to just walk forward (and at present that'd require a significant pts drop of horde units), take punishment and win through attrition they'd be a very boring army to face and use, being very one-dimensional.

Mephiston

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I was a little surprised that Chroma jumped in when he did and locked your thread, I've seen arguments go on for much longer than that

Stompzilla

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Well you thought wrong then Si. There's no denying that the game was boring. I didn't mean to be obnoxious and if that's the way it came across then apologies. A certain amount of it is our personal banter. We've known each other and gamed against one another for years and i do like to tease you, as i know you do me. Me yawning at you is just like you bitching about skimmer spam etc. It's not something i'd do at a tourney for e.g. but i (Mistakenly?) believed that we could have a bit of banter given our long standing relationship. There was no animosity at the time or in the pub afterwards, so your tac-coms outburst came as a bit of a shock this morning.

I didn't want you to commit suicide and throw the game but i did want something to happen. Both at the time and now i did comment that you were doing the best thing with what you had available but it was boring and very not nid like. I never once laid the blame for the excitement of the game at your feet. The blame lies in my eyes with the nid list, a sentiment i expressed both last night and today online.

By contesting objectives and engaging in the shooting match i did what titan legions do and won the game. I was taken by surprise by the fact that you could re-generate bio-titans admittadely and it did seem a little unfair at the time. That being said with a bit more luck i could still have completed the BTS mission (3 hits out of 8 dice, needing 3s for e.g.! Lol). Now i have a better idea of the nid special rules i would likely have played the game a little differently but that doesn't change the fact that there was almost nothing you could do against 2 battle titans except sit and hide and i played to the titan's strengths and shot you.

I never suggested you should lose the bodyguard - they were very effective and i've no idea where you're getting that from. I also never suggested your army list was rubbish. (Actually, are you talking about tac-coms comments?)

I don't think you're right with your armoured company analogy. I played against TL twice over the weekend and did quite well with my eldar. Guard could produce a similar list with superheavy tank companies and titans. The trick is to take advantage of your activation superiority. However with the current nid list your options were very limited as to what you could actually do. The ideal thing would have been to double your Dominatrix fm to within 15 cm of my reaver in the city and rid it of some void shields and add blast markers and then to assault with your swarm in the city. However with the nids as they are it would have been a risky move, as gaunts are pants in an assault.

However if gaunts counted as half casualties in assault it would have been a very viable tactic and if done right would have won you the game and been very nid like.

So my suggestions would be:
1) Gaunts count as 1/2 casualties in engagements.
2) Chris' idea about the spawning.

Jeridian

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I get the strong impression we (Me, Stomp, etc) are the noisy kids swaggering into the old man's patch claiming we can do it all better- when they've seen it all before.

Admittedly a fair few of our ideas seemd to have been suggested, tested and rejected long before we arrived at Tactical command.

To them it's retreading old ground.

hello_dave

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Well yeah, but you both found issues with how the list played and were providing feedback. which is what I thought the whole purpose is...

Jeridian

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Well you thought wrong then Si. There's no denying that the game was boring.

That was your opinion that rapidly and unstoppably enforced as fact. I found the early stages of the game (before it being 'boring' was being enforced) interesting, not least because Titan Legion are so different to fight and so required being a lot more cagey to fight.

I didn't mean to be obnoxious and if that's the way it came across then apologies. A certain amount of it is our personal banter. We've known each other and gamed against one another for years and i do like to tease you, as i know you do me. Me yawning at you is just like you bitching about skimmer spam etc. It's not something i'd do at a tourney for e.g. but i (Mistakenly?) believed that we could have a bit of banter given our long standing relationship.

It's difficult to explain what bugged me, I'll try an analogy.

When playing against Eldar I'll bitch, I'll slag your army off and it's various broken units- this I agree we're both guilty of and used to.
But in addition you were basically saying things with genuine conviction like:

"You should have just advanced your Eldar Falcons into my Engagement range, not jump shoot jump"
"You should have engaged my very hard units with your weaker ones, not preserve them."

Basically telling me that I should have used tactics that would undoubtably lost me the game very quickly, and being offended when I didn't do so.

I slag off Eldar a lot, but I never tell you you should make suicidal moves because I'm bored.

I didn't want you to commit suicide and throw the game but i did want something to happen. Both at the time and now i did comment that you were doing the best thing with what you had available but it was boring and very not nid like. I never once laid the blame for the excitement of the game at your feet. The blame lies in my eyes with the nid list, a sentiment i expressed both last night and today online.

Perhaps in hindsight, but at the time the two are indistinquishable. I'm playing the army, I'm choosing when and where to do things. I still thing that it is being vastly overexaggerrated how boring the Nids where. If I was facing anything else, any other army, they have infantry, normal tanks, maybe aircraft- there'd have been viable targets for me to bother going after.

It's like a 40k army cowering from Armoured Company, then using this to say that 40k army always cowers and is boring. Clearly the Armoured Company is a special case.

By contesting objectives and engaging in the shooting match i did what titan legions do and won the game. I was taken by surprise by the fact that you could re-generate bio-titans admittadely and it did seem a little unfair at the time. That being said with a bit more luck i could still have completed the BTS mission (3 hits out of 8 dice, needing 3s for e.g.! Lol). Now i have a better idea of the nid special rules i would likely have played the game a little differently but that doesn't change the fact that there was almost nothing you could do against 2 battle titans except sit and hide and i played to the titan's strengths and shot you.

But this is likely to be true for a lot of armies, such as my Marines. The Titan Legion is a special case that requires special (different) tactics to what my Marines, or Nids, or other armies would use conventionally. Some armies like Orks and IG are blessed with decent long-range TK weapons, most aren't.

So does the game reflect more about Nids or about Titan Legion?

I never suggested you should lose the bodyguard - they were very effective and i've no idea where you're getting that from. I also never suggested your army list was rubbish.

You've stated regenerating/spawning them is unfair. Without Spawning my bodyguard would have died turn 1, my Dominatrix turn 2, under that onslaught. It would have been a walkover. For a start the Dominatrix would net you 900pts alone.

Even with spawning (and even with you staying outside of 30cm) you caused significant damage to the Dominatrix and killed more overall, a VP's win.

So without spawning, it would be a case of 'Nids vs. Eldar' all over again- i.e. don't bother showing up.

By army list I meant the Nid 9.1 Army, rather than my own choices.

I don't think you're right with your armoured company analogy. I played against TL twice over the weekend and did quite well with my eldar.

Depends if your taking my analogy the right way.

If by comparing it to Armoured Company you think I mean it's overpowered, and other armies can't deal with it, not that's not what I meant. I'm sure the Titan Legion is internally balanced, and does have glaring weaknesses to be exploited (such as low Activation count), Epic in general is more able to accomadate extremes than 40k.

If by comparing to Armoured Company you think I mean that in a game of infantry and a few token tanks (40k), an army of tanks will require a completely different plan of action and strategy on the opposing armies side.

If 40k Infantry = Epic Infantry/Tanks
Then 40k Tanks/Monstrous Creatures = Epic Titans/War Machines

From here the similarities in their frequency within an army compared to the infantry, the icon as the toughest most endurable formation/unit in the army, etc.

How in 40k your anti-infantry weapons (of which you have many) are useless against Tanks, in Epic your AP weapons (of which you have many) are useless against Titans.

You've got to see how an army focusing on one extreme of the Epic game (Titans) will force extreme changes in tactics for the opposing army.

Guard could produce a similar list with superheavy tank companies and titans.

Guard are restricted to 1000pts of Titans, big difference. Tank Companies as you've stated in the past are not as good as Titans- they're easier to break and suppress, I'd have sent Nids in against them as I can kills stuff and diminish their return fire.

But this misses the point, I'm not saying Titan Legion are broken (since people always assume everything I say is claiming something is broken there's not much point trying to change this dogma), far from it. Just that such an extreme specialism army will cause extreme strategy changes in most armies you will face. Most armies I predict will be a lot more cagey and defensive, because you've got 5 giant frikkin robots of death stalking around.
You may find these games boring too, time will tell.

The ideal thing would have been to double your Dominatrix fm to within 15 cm of my reaver in the city and rid it of some void shields and add blast markers and then to assault with your swarm in the city. However with the nids as they are it would have been a risky move, as gaunts are pants in an assault.

I know we can go round in circles with theoryhammer but I can poke a dozen obvious wholes in this logic.
-Why would your Reaver not just move away
-Dominatrix sprinting in the open is a dead Dominatrix
-Assaulting with a Gaunt swarm isn't risky, it's suicide
-There was a Warlord in Supporting Fire range
-Assaulting with a Gaunt swarm is suicide, I cannot stress this enough
-Even contemplating assaulting with a Gaunt swarm is a sign your about to lose

However if gaunts counted as half casualties in assault it would have been a very viable tactic and if done right would have won you the game and been very nid like.

I wouldn't go so far as very viable, I'd have said it would have helped bring the combat up to a 50/50 chance I might win, still very doubtful. How would it have won me the game?
I'm very unlikely to kill a Reaver even with overly optimistic rolls on my 5+ Gaunts and you failing 4+ Reinforced Armour a lot. I win the assault (by some miracle), the Reaver breaks, strolls away ready to get back stuck in- I now have a Dominatrix pissing in the wind waiting to be TK'ed and a badly mauled Gaunt swarm.

So my suggestions would be:
1) Gaunts count as 1/2 casualties in engagements.
2) Chris' idea about the spawning.

Agreed, the Spawning idea weakens my army considerably, but I think the rewards in terms of being more intuitive and encouraging Nids to close with the enemy and keep closing with the enemy are well worth it.

Well yeah, but you both found issues with how the list played and were providing feedback. which is what I thought the whole purpose is...

Agreed, but I think the affect facing an all-Titan army has on the general play and tactics of Nids is being completely ignored in saying they're boring, it will cause drastic changes on the opponents part- and some armies will just have to sit there and take it.

My Marines would have been no different, circling overhead looking for weakpoints, strafing sentinels, they trying to grab something turn 3.

Stompzilla

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You know what Si, i don't want to talk to you at all.

This is just going to go round and round, you're going to keep throwing in the digs and i'm going to get extremely angry. It's an age old dance that i simply can't be bothered with. There is some good stuff in there that i would like to reply to but when i'm constantly having to read this kind of thing:

That was your opinion that rapidly and unstoppably enforced as fact. I found the early stages of the game (before it being 'boring' was being enforced)

Plus all the other crap i've had to read over on Tac-coms today, i'm just not interested.

Jeridian

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Fair enough.

Chroma

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Jeridian wrote:
Well, let's pretend this is not yet another breakaway faction of Epic, but I've found Tactical Command to be way too thin-skinned and ultra-defensive, a bit thread-lock trigger happy.

Hahahahahaha! "Thread-lock trigger happy"... I think yours was the first thread I've ever locked... You and Stompzilla seem to have some kind of history, but the "banter" in that thread was coming off as mean and unnecessary to anyone who was just wandering in and was rapidly straying from Tyranid development.

Is his "You know what Si, i don't want to talk to you at all." in this thread joking or real?

I'm appreciating your input at TacComm, Jeridian, not sure where the "thin-skinned" idea is coming from though. Feel free to PM me over there if you've got concerns.

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Last edited by Chroma (2009-01-31 19:20:32)

Jeridian

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Hahahahahaha! "Thread-lock trigger happy"... I think yours was the first thread I've ever locked... You and Stompzilla seem to have some kind of history, but the "banter" in that thread was coming off as mean and unnecessary to anyone who was just wandering in and was rapidly straying from Tyranid development.

Glad it amused ya. I've been involved with a few other threads that recieve instant lock as soon as something remotely interesting happens, or a difference of opinion arises- such as the Epic UK thread. I'll visit and I appreciate the great works produced and linked there but active input seems to be half-ignored, half-locked.
Any suggestion does seem to get a 'hmm, good for you' then dies quickly.

Is his "You know what Si, i don't want to talk to you at all." in this thread joking or real?

Meh, there's often hissy fits here, I eventually take the rap as the bad guy regardless so we're taking the new approach of just not bothering. We both think we're right, we aren't gonna budge.

I'm appreciating your input at TacComm, Jeridian, not sure where the "thin-skinned" idea is coming from though. Feel free to PM me over there if you've got concerns.

I'll no doubt be posting new battle reports here and also testing ideas such as 1/2 Gaunt Combat Res and reverse Spawning modifiers. Feel free to take a look. I'll be keeping a lurkers eye on the Nid development (and other Epic stuff) over at Tactical Command.

Stompzilla

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Chroma wrote:
seem to have some kind of history, but the "banter" in that thread was coming off as mean and unnecessary to anyone who was just wandering in and was rapidly straying from Tyranid development.

Is his "You know what Si, i don't want to talk to you at all." in this thread joking or real?

Lol, must be like walking in on a domestic for you guys.

It is a long standing relationship of agreemenet and then antagonism, lol. History has shown it's best just to leave it.

So, you still up gor some gamage tomorrow Si, you big gay panda?

Jeridian

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Probably best not, eh. We don't want to provide more ammunition for the argument.

Besides the weather is supposed to be awful tommorow.

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