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Mephiston

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Gents, just wondering if any of you a) Had any Tau and b) what you thought of either 5.x or 6.x over on TC?

Stompzilla

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I have Tau and tbh i think they're both pretty wank lists, bogged down by too much production time, and too many people with vested interests in what's gone before, forming a detritus of rubbish that they wont get rid of because it'll hurt too many people's feelings.

E&Cs list had some promise though and was quite enjoyable.

hello_dave

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Hi Mephiston.

Stomp has Tau (and I played my first few games against them).
They're one of those lists that I think *should* be there, but I have no real interest getting myself, so I'm maybe not the best person to comment.

tbh I've tuned out of the Tau development, since it seems to have devolved into something of an ideological crusade to design an army that doesn't do engagements. I like the idea of them as somewhere between the Eldar and Guard.

Evil and Chaos

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Thanks for the vote of confidence Stomp, but I'd like to note that "my" list was really a proposal of ideas for what to do with the 5.x series in order to finish it, as derrived both from my own ideas but also from community ideas (including several democratic votes to nail down issues like Devilfish speed).

The V6 list is somewhat based on those ideas, but has been filtered through the opinions of the TC Tau Champion.

I would much prefer to see an 'Orca Gunship/Bomber' in the list so that people can use their 'Scorpionfish' miniatures, and I think that Crisis Suit formations should all be Initiative 1+ for no change in points cost from V6, but mostly I'd say it's okay... better than the V5.x series IMO anyway, which had drifted away from what the 'Tau' should be, IMO.

I would note that v6 is quite capable of doing engagements, FF5+ and AS 5+ is certainly better than Guard, if not quite as good as Eldar Aspect Warriors...

Jeridian

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I have no interest in Tau development as long as they follow the 'No Engagements' policy that means Fire Warriors are unable to do the very role they where designed for. In ever more desperate attempts to give Fire Warriors a niche other than Engagements they are crammed with more and more short-ranged Disrupt weapons.

Fire Warriors in background and in game are the line-breakers, the ground holders and the backbone of the Tau army. All the other stuff- Hammerheads, Crisis Suits, etc are supposed to soften up the enemy from distant, using their mobility to get to where needed fast (to the 'Crisis').

Fire Warriors are supposed to finish the job with a well-placed Firefight engagement.

If Tau were never meant to Engage, they'd never use Small Arms- the Pulse Rifle wouldn't exist. Tau wouldn't play in games of 40k.

I know it's a Jervis Writ from upon high, but sometimes they work (such as the no Aircraft in Nid lists) and sometimes they're stinkers (no Engagement with Tau).

Added 11.08.2009 13:43:20:

I would note that v6 is quite capable of doing engagements, FF5+ and AS 5+ is certainly better than Guard,

That's rubbish, TBH.
Guard have Storm Troopers and Rough Riders with much better stats than that.
The guys with FF 5+ generally have longer-ranged and more numerous firepower than Fire Warriors.

Fire Warriors should be FF 4+, it's just that simple. Every infantryman packs a Heavy Bolter...

Drop the FW firepower down to 1x AP 5+ 30cm. Then they have a very specific role of Engagements.

Evil and Chaos

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I've waved back and forth on the issue of FF4+ Fire Warriors over time, but right now I sit on the FF5+ side of the fence, for one main reason:

- It provides a genuinely different style of army with a unique tactical style. An army with FF4+ Fire Warriors would be, for all its other merits, less unique.

With their cheap Devilfish and superior manoueverability Fire Warriors can place their ranged firepower where they want, when they want, and leave enemy formations, if not broken, then so battered that an Engagement is a losing prospect.

So they unleash devestating firepower at Engagement ranges, but don't actually enter Engagements... that's the theory anyway.

=====

Another alternative to a straight FF4+ for Fire Warriors is to give +1 FF rating to units in a Firefight if the enemy was markerlit, similar to how the ranged Markerlights work now. I would favour this if a list was to go down the increased FF path, as it feels more 'Tauish' to have their Firefight prowess reliant on their superior technology (and again, has a unique tactical style).

Fire Warriors in background and in game are the line-breakers, the ground holders and the backbone of the Tau army.

I agree with all of that except the part about holding ground. Tau Fire Warriors only hold ground when in extremis. In all situations their preferred strategies lie in attack or tactical withdrawal, for them to be holding ground something has gone very wrong; Holding ground is basically anathema to the standard Tau tactical doctrine.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2009-11-08 15:04:58)

Jeridian

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- It provides a genuinely different style of army with a unique tactical style. An army with FF4+ Fire Warriors would be, for all its other merits, less unique.

How so? How is the current Tau army more unique for not being able to do Engagements, apart from being a poorer less well-rounded army for it.
Every army, even IG can and do do Engagements. Engagements are the Assault or Charge Phase of Epic, there is no other brutal way to Break or destroy an enemy formation that needs Breaking or destroying right then. Engagements are the most complex, elaborate and requiring of planning of all the actions in Epic- you take that from any of the armies and it becomes a shallow mirror.

With their cheap Devilfish and superior manoueverability Fire Warriors can place their ranged firepower where they want, when they want, and leave enemy formations, if not broken, then so battered that an Engagement is a losing prospect.

So they unleash devestating firepower at Engagement ranges, but don't actually enter Engagements... that's the theory anyway.

That's the theory, in practice it's not even close. Nothing Breaks a formation like a well-planned and executed Engagement. Marines have the same mobility and cheap transports, heck IG have the same mobility and cheap transport in Mechanised Companies- nothing special, except the Fire Warriors are artificially crippled in Engagements.

I agree with all of that except the part about holding ground. Tau Fire Warriors only hold ground when in extremis. In all situations their preferred strategies lie in attack or tactical withdrawal, for them to be holding ground something has gone very wrong; Holding ground is basically anathema to the standard Tau tactical doctrine.

Tau don't hold ground strategically, like a city or bridge or trenchworks over a period of days, weeks, years. Tactically in a game of Epic they must hold ground temporarily for minutes, hours, etc to gather resources, wounded, to bait the enemy in, destroy enemy installations, etc, if they never hold ground then they can never win the Tournament scenario. They would never win a battle.

Their philosophy of run away and wear down the enemy simply cannot work against Orks, Tyranids or even IG who have near-limitless resources to swamp them. They must eventually hold some ground, or they will have nowhere left to hide.

Stompzilla

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Aye, I'd like Tau to be able to do engagements. TBH this is one of the reasons my Tau hardly see any gaming time these days, over my Eldar. Setting up engagement traps, preparing them and then moving on is definately one of the most interesting parts of the game making the Eldar just more fun to use.

I agree that Tau should be somewhere inbetween Guard and Eldar.

If i was to design a Tau list i'd likely take E&Cs list and then play around with some of the FF stats (FWs, stealth suits - each one is armed with a heavy bolter with pulse carbine range and they have stealth generators and jetpacks so they can get closer and crisis suits should all do FF to some degree.)

For my money i'd have:
FWs @ FF4+ AS5+
SSs @ FF3+ AS 5+RA
CSs @ FF5+ MW AS 4+

and then make minor tweaks/points adjustments to balance.

I also think the jetpack rules need looking at. I'd prefer to see something along the lines of Eldar hit and run but without the extra consolidate after engagements.

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Last edited by Stompzilla (2009-11-09 11:53:28)

Evil and Chaos

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How is the current Tau army more unique for not being able to do Engagements, apart from being a poorer less well-rounded army for it.

ERC Tau are quite capable of Engaging... they're typically superior to IG anyway.

Just because they're not as good at firefighting as Marines, or FF-based aspect warriors, that doesn't make them rubbish at Firefights... just not exceptional at firefights.

That's the theory, in practice it's not even close. Nothing Breaks a formation like a well-planned and executed Engagement.

Coordinated Fire using Crossfire and Markerlights for +1 to-hit for all attacking Tau weapons does a pretty good job of shredding enemy formations. :-)

For my money i'd have:
FWs @ FF4+ AS5+
SSs @ FF3+ AS 5+RA
CSs @ FF5+ MW AS 4+

and then make minor tweaks/points adjustments to balance.

You'd need more than minor points tweaks I reckon... and you'd have to pull back considerably on the ranged firepower attacks in the list (cutting out at least half the ranged weapons on the units you name, for starters). If you kept the ranged attacks as they are now and added exeptional firefight power on top, you'd end up with a list more elite (and with fewer models in a typical army) than Marines.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos (2009-11-09 20:10:07)

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